www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why I do not plan on changing jurisdictions

Diak,

What can I say but that all I've seen and read of Russian Orthodoxy, plus our CD's of RO liturgical has captivated me. Plus I've always been curious about the Russian language and the Cyrillic alphabet.

You ever been to a Russian Orthodox liturgy ? There's what sounds like a small ROCOR chapel down in Owasso between here and Tulsa. Don't know how they'd react to a pack of 'Uniates' in their midst, but do believe I've read / heard that the ROCOR is of "irregular status". Any idea what that's all about ?

Blessings of Christ our God,

Sam

Sam, the ROCOR and MP are in close proximity to reunification and are in regular communication in Russia. The ROCOR has a nice site at http://www.synod.com

What the eventual reaction will be in the US, I do not know. I have several friends who are ROCOR monastics, and I can tell you they are not very happy about reunification with some of the SCOBA jurisdictions.

I do not consider them "irregular" at all, but having nothing but complete respect and admiration for what they have accomplished and the courage they displayed for sticking to their guns regarding the situation in the USSR and the aquiescence of the Sergian hierarchy to the Soviet government.

And as for their monastery of Holy Trinity, Jordanville, well, that is truly heaven on earth. Nowhere is the Eastern monastic tradition celebrated in such a manner in North America. Check out http://www.jordanville.org

I also love their skete in West Virginia [Holy Cross], which has, by the way, the VERY best selection of incense IMHO in the USA. You can check out their page at http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/. I order all of our parish incense and the incense for my home from them. And, like me, they have goats which brings instant approval from me.

Holy Cross Hermitage also has a nice mail-order book business, and two wonderful posters for religious education for children from pre-revolutionary Russia, one of which is the "honest and industrious man" and the other is the "lazy and brutal man" showing various life and spiritual stages.

I would be lost without my Jordanville Horologion and Book of Akathists. The ROCOR has some of the best [and only in some cases] English translations of the Slavonic service books from the Synodal Russian usage.

Yes, I have been to the Owasso ROCOR mission. The priest and his wife are both converts to Orthodoxy. There was also an OCA mission starting to form in Tulsa, but don't know if it got off of the ground.

Diak- thanks for the link to the monastery; it is not so far from here, I may check it out sometime...
Sam- you should be forewarned that ROCOR folks are often [but not always] pretty hostile to anything Catholic. An article on their website claimed that St Francis of Assisi, who is loved by nearly all Christians, was a demoniac!
Just thought you ought to know so you're not blindsided...
-Daniel

Diak writes:

[Yes, I have been to the Owasso ROCOR mission. The priest and his wife are both converts to Orthodoxy. There was also an OCA mission starting to form in Tulsa, but don't know if it got off of the ground.]

The OCA mission parish in Tulsa did not only get off the ground but it is up and functioning very successfully. They are now renting temporary headquarters with a nice church set up (see pics of their website). They already have a full time priest, architectural blue prints, and are in the process purchasing four acres of land in a beautiful section of Tulsa. Check out their website which is listed below. Especially the pictures.

Here is an email I received today from my friend Taras who is on the planning committee.

========

Bob,
�
Good morning! Through God's grace and mercy the Mission is doing very well. A couple of months ago we were assigned a permanent priest, Fr. Ambrose who had recently graduated from St. Tikhon's seminary. Everybody liked him almost instantly. He is quite young, but already have a large family: Matushka Christina, two children and third on the way. Starting in July he has been here every weekend. So the Mission has its regular services weekly.
�
Yesterday some more exciting news came. We contracted to buy land for Holy Apostles Orthodox Church!� As a result of ongoing negotiations, the Holy Apostles mission�should purchase four acres of land at 111th and South Garnett Avenue. This is an excellent location that everybody could only dream about. Although the owner was initially asking $180,000 for the property, we were able to get the acreage for $117,500.�Now we need to sign the papers as soon as possible.�This purchase price falls within the range presented within our strategic outline presented at the last council meeting.� We will be closing on the property in approximately 60 days.� In that time we will work to secure financing, get zoning adjustments (if required), and begin plans for our multipurpose facility. We should praise our Lord for His great mercy and blessings that he bestows upon us. You also can read a lot of information in our news letter that can be found on the web site. Please check out all pages there.
�
Our address is:

http://www.holyapostles-orthodox.org/


�
May God bless you!
�
Taras
�
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CHECK IT OUT!

OrthoMan

Iconophile,

I apologize if you took offense at what I said.

I simply don't think it's right to take everything a community has to offer without giving it full committment back, even at the expense of some inconveniences. I think you're putting comfort(as opposed to theological and spiritual) requirements on your decision.

I don't think it's right.

A lot of people have suffered and are suffering greatly for the Byzantine Catholic Church here in America and in the Eastern Catholic churches in the "homeland". Make your choice well and live with the difficulties, just as the rest of the community lives with the difficulties.

- But I am committed to the community with whom I worship; as I have tried to explain the current situation requires that one join, in effect, a particular ethnic group. Being a Russophile, I might do this if the Russian Catholic Church takes off, which seems doubtful. This thread began as one man's apologia for the Administrator's vision of a united Byzantine jurisdiction [the Administrator and I agree almost always on ecclesial and theological questions, almost never on politics or what constitutes acceptable humor on the forum.] I fully appreciate Rusyn culture but I ain't no Rusyn or any kind of Slav and I'm not a wanna-be. And as I said, a jurisdictional change is a once-in-a-lifetime thing.

I agree with Iconophile. No one should be required to become a Slav in order to become a Byzantine Catholic. I can understand, respect, and support a decision by someone who chooses to not to formally transfer from the Latin Church to the Byzantine. It is unfair to ask people to embrace an ethnicity that is not their own in order to be a formal part of our Church.

Daniel, I would also point out the example of the OCA. They do not require anyone to become Russian, and if you prefer an Albanian, Bulgarian or Romanian liturgical focus there is certainly room for that.

I have a friend who was an ex-Episcopalian priest who is now in the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA. He was not asked to become Bulgarian, nor desired such, and offers the Liturgy in English. He was rather attracted to that particular liturgical, musical, etc. expression and was welcomed.

That is a good example of practical economia and "inclusivity" in a true sense, allowing a diversity of expressions of liturgical use, music, etc. of different Constantinopolitan usages.

The OCA offers a wonderful example of what is possible when a larger picture and vision of the tradition is considered rather than one insular and ethnic-specific interpretation of the tradition.

Diak- I agree, the OCA offers a good model on how to preserve ethnicity -something I wholeheartedly support- while being open and non-exclusive. We can learn a lot from them, not least by their evangelistic efforts reaching out to Evangelicals.

Daniel and Admin,

I felt the necessity to pull a couple paragraphs from a post that I made on another thread of similar topic a few months ago

Someone mentioned previously on this thread (and Unity, I think, said on a post in another thread, a long while back) those who love the East and worship in it, but choose not to formally transfer, do a disservice to our Churches. Look around at the parish in which you worship and see how many of your community are not formally of the Church in which you are worshipping. I think it makes a compelling argument for how much larger our acknowledged population would be if those folks requested a change of canonical enrollment. Who knows? It might even offset some of the loss that we know we have suffered to the Latin Church.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, if one is a member registered on the rolls of a Greek Catholic parish I believe they will be counted as such regardless of church of origin.

I wouldn't think those making the census go into such detail as contacting the Eastern Congregation in Rome to find out who belongs to what Church "officially", which would be difficult considering that data is spread around between Rome, various pro-nuncios, and other diverse location.

Rather, I think they rely on eparchial numbers, and those eparcial numbers are derived from numbers of parishoners registered at each parish. I know of plenty of people who are Roman but are formally registered in Greek Catholic parishes.

As I mentioned above, the only potential snag I can see is if one wants to pursue holy orders, since a candidate if still Roman would need to be released by his Roman diocese he is still canonically subject to. If you are Russian Catholic, one currently doesn't have any choice since there is no longer an Exarch.

Randy,

I agree, but I also am aware of large numbers who never formally register, but attend and act like parishioners in every other way.

Many years,

Neil

To clarify, my family and I are registered in a Ruthenian Byzantine parish... we have the envelopes to proove it.

Diak,

Two things. First, the OCA church in Tulsa is up and running. Second, problems can arise when marriage or baptism comes up, not just Holy Orders.

iconophile,

I'm glad to hear you are not an ethnic "wanna-be". Neither am I.

I disagree with the majority here. I think it is selfish to take from a community without taking on its sufferings simply because it doesn't meet your ethnic requirements (not Russian or "American").

I have seen too many Byzantine parishes of all ethnic backgrounds diluted by well-meaning folks who are never quite dedicated enough to go the full distance. I've seen the music changed, traditions lost, and the people who wish to maintain the practice of their faith as they received it, even if they had to drive for a whole entire hour to reach the church, treated like outcasts by those who scrupulously follow cannon law to make certain their actions are justified.

I don't think it's necessary for me to post more here. This is my opinion. When most of the people "registered" at Eastern Catholic parishes are Roman Catholics who didn't see the need to change rites and love the smells and bells, the EC churches will simply be a rite of the Roman Catholic Church, secondary in stature. There are those who suspect that is currently the case.

Incognitus,

Interesting point. When Home Depot bought into home improvement businesses in Chile and Argentina a few years ago, it found that Spanish language training materials and signage, already in place from its Puerto Rican locales, had to be re-translated. The company's subsequent expansion into Mexico caused yet a third edition to become necessary.

Many years,

Neil