www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why I do not plan on changing jurisdictions

Cizinec,

I would agree with you, but the issues are much more easily dealt with - not requiring interaction with Rome, as is necessary for reception of Holy Orders.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

I'm not sure of what you mean. Rome had no interaction in my ordination, but my change in canonical enrollment did precede my call to ordination by a number of years. Are you refering to a different type of situation?

Deacon John,

Yes. I was referring to someone who discerned a call to a vocation in an Eastern Church, but had not yet made a Request for Change in Canonical Enrollment. It's my understanding that in instances when the two situations coincide, Rome reserves to itself (possibly through the offices of the Nuncio, as used to be the case in the old days for "Changes of Rite", before permission to grant the requests were delegated to the involved Ordinaries) the right of approval of the request.

Now, I understand this to be the situation with regard to presbyteral vocations (and I suspect it has to do with looking to assure that this isn't being undertaken to bypass the celibate priesthood situation), I am not at all sure whether it also applies to diaconal vocations.

Many years,

Neil

Cizinec, I fail to see how a piece of paper with an episcopal stamp is somehow indicative of the heart or intentions or commitment of the Christian. It is certainly no fixed yardstick of an individual's living out the Christian life.

I know of plenty of good people who faithfully attend our parishes, are often leaders in those parishes, but never get the "piece of paper".

I also know of several great cantors, who have brought back much good and lost music faithful to the local traditions of the parishes they assist at, who never got the "piece of paper".

My oldest son received all of the sacraments of initiation before I received my "piece of paper". There was no hesitation or grief from the priest who gave my son the Mysteries. I was already a cantor at that parish and had restored a great deal of their musical heritage.

I also know of Orthodox who attend, contribute to, and give much to churches that may not be the jurisdiction of their birth or conversion. I won't question their "commitment". That's between them, their church, and God, and not for me to presume based on stamped pieces of paper.

With apologies for the belated reply, Randy, I checked out your link to Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. Truly a bit of heaven on earth ! Both the interior and exterior of the monastery church look as if they'd been transported straight out of 16th century Russia instead of having been built in mid-20th century New York state. Guess my reaction's a combination of my Byzantine disposition and the former student of architecture in me .

Sam

sometimes certain pieces of paper do make a difference - several such are in my safe-deposit box. But the specific piece of paper sometimes called a "change of rite" is not usually in that category. Whether one dees or doesn't have the piece of paper, one's commitment to one's parish, tradition, bishop and so on is meaured in other ways. It is a matter of the heart, not the safe-deposit box.
Incognitus

Dear Sam,

Here is a link for a more complete view of the interior of Jordanville. Orthodox Christians can be very attached to iconography and tradition, as such when it is removed or destroyed it can be troublesome and is not looked upon as a favorable development.

http://www.uticaod.com/news/photogallery/jordanville/gallery1.html

The "irregular status" you may have heard of is the result of the lack of knowledge the person (s) that would come to such a conclusion.

Dear Diak,

There are also many Monks at Jordanville that are not opposed to reunification with Moscow. Additionally, part of being a Monk or Orthodox Christian is obedience and trusting in God who has placed others in the position to make such decisions.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew, I don't disagree, some certainly do not have problems with reunification with Moscow. As time goes on, fewer have problems, actually. Many of the very hard-line anti-Sergianists have already gravitated to the ROAC.

Some do, however, in the ROCOR still have strong feelings about the whole Sergianist hierarchy thing. They will all have to sort that out, and find what is stronger in their hearts, conscience or obedience. I pray they reunite soon for the betterment of all.

But actually, the hesitation I heard voiced here in the USA may have more to do with being "forced" into communion with a certain SCOBA jurisdiction that they feel is very liberal rather than the issue of reunification with Moscow.

Dear Diak,

Suffice it to say, embracing forgiveness is an obedience, that always effects conscience in a fruitful way as articulated by the Fathers. It is a virtue that I'm sure our Hierarchs are familiar with.

The certain SCOBA jurisdiction you are referencing is loved I'm sure even in light of the differences, as you know the Orthodox speak to each other on many occasions. Many Priest within that jurisdiction that I have spoken with express similar concerns.

The most significant concern is the Ecumenical movement and Orthodox participation in it, for it attempts to determine the degrees and locations of Grace within various belief systems and seeks unity via the recognition and acceptance of those determinations. Quite a bit of discernment is a prerequisite. Even Moscow's participation in the Ecumenical movement is conveyed as more of a responsible presentation of the Russian Orthodox Church and her beliefs to the heterodox rather than the acceptance stated objectives of the WCC.

Nevertheless, Orthodox Christians are not immune from disagreements and some wisely recognize that a smiley acceptance of the unacceptable is not part of the Orthodox tradition and that is an expression of love of and for the truth.

As you know if, we can read and learn much from the Fathers of the Orthodox Church arguments are nothing new even among those like me who are not Saints. In a letter written by Saint Gregory the theologian to Saint Basil the Great we can read the following;

"Do leave off speaking of me as an ill-educated and uncouth and unfriendly man, not even worthy to live."

I don't think I'm taking that quote out of context inappropriately nor do I doubt for a minute that the aforementioned Saints loved and prayed for each other.

Would I be limited to assume that since you have ROCOR monk friends you are Orthodox and not in communion with Rome?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Randy and Matthew,

I just realized where I found ROCOR's status described as "irregular". It's found in none other than the "Links to Sister Churches" at www.byzcath.org !

God Bless,

Sam

Diak,

There is a distinct difference between an Orthodox person attending a separate jurisdiction. That is, they are both Eastern Christian jurisdictions and approach the faith in a similar fashion. The same is not true of Western and Eastern Christians.

The problem arises when a Western Christian decides to "become" an Eastern Christian and the parish does not require education to help the individual in the transition. Then they are greeted with an attitude that there are absolutely no differences between the two.

I understand why most BCs would want to downplay some distinct differences between East and West.

Concerning the idea that the only time there will be problems is if you decide to become a monk or priest, I can tell you that this is incorrect.

Getting your child baptized can be a much greater struggle for an EC in an area without a parish. Then, how can you ensure your infant will receive communion? Or am I incorrect in thinking that the the communing of your child is a big deal? All of the sacraments carry some level of difficulty.

Concerning the "piece of paper" theory, that was the reason I brought up the analogy to marriage. I have a brother-in-law who has been living with the same gal for many years. He uses the same argument.

In my view, you are either committed to Eastern Christianity or you are not. If you are, the "piece of paper" will matter. That piece of paper should mean something. It should demonstrate that a person made a commitment of time to learn about, as most ECs would put it, another perspective. It should also demonstrate a level of commitment to the church in which one claims to belong.

Roy, I thought in the previous page you had said " don't think it's necessary for me to post more here". But to respond to your additional comment, a piece of paper can't say what is in the heart or soul of the Christian. I think that is straight enough.

There are plenty of "cradle" Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter) that you never see except for funerals, weddings, maybe Pascha, etc. No great commitment there sometimes, either. We've all run into people like that, and they are supposed to be "nash", at least on paper.

I'm not sure what to make of your comment regarding communion and sacraments for our children, I certainly (as most here on the Forum I would think), take it very seriously. I've lived in places where I have had to travel sometimes two hours to get to DL to commune my children (sometimes in Orthodox parishes who were sympathetic), and it is not fair to judge "commitment" in a blanket sense. That's between God, themselves, and their spiritual father.

While I do agree that some catechesis and education is required for Romans leaning Eastward, it seems a bit hypocritical to say on one hand it's always OK and it's different when Orthodox float, but not when a Roman wants to go to a Greek Catholic church, which is often for genuine spiritual enrichment. We'll take them, and we'll teach them, no problem. I'll leave their "commitment", as everything else, to the judgement of God.