www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Celts moving East

I notice from time to time dearly beloved Celts popping up on the Forum. Being of Irish extraction and on my way to becoming Melkite, I'm interested in finding out how many Celts we have out there and learning more about how they have found their way East.

I've touched upon my own move in the few posts I have posted in the past but I will give a brief synopsis. I was born and raised Roman Catholic in the 1950's and early 60's. As I entered my teen years, in the mid and late 60's I rebelled against the faith and finally left. I probably could have been considered a Catholic fundamentalist in how I practiced my faith. But the upheavals in the Church in the 60's undermined my simple faith and I lost my faith in the Faith in the process.

I experimented some with eastern religions and some in occultism but never found any real fulfillment in them. Eventually I came back into Christianity through the charismatic movement and spent 17 years in various Protestant churches and sometimes flirting again with Catholicism but on my understanding of it.

About 1978 I discovered the Church Fathers and started studying Church history. It was about another 10 years before I finally returned to the Catholic Church, though I did consider Orthodoxy as a possibility.

Upon my return to the Church, I tended toward the Traditionalist side and even got involved with some movements that considered the Pope to be in heresy while not denying him to be the Pope. I also became involved with the Feeneyite movement that believed in a strict view of "outside the church there is no salvation."

I was at war within myself. One side (I like to say my true Irish side) just couldn't accept the negativity of these views and the negative view of the Church. The other side (must be the Dutch and English Protestant I got on my mother's side revelled in the idea that I was with the right side and boy were we going to be vindicated one day.

I was attending the Latin Mass almost exclusively at this time but it wasn't until 1:30 in the afternoon and it pretty well shot Sundays for anything else. My two boys were getting restless so I tried to find an alternative to keep at least some Sundays open to do other things. I couldn't bring myself to go back to a typical Roman parish, mostly because the music was so bad that it turned my stomach or even the parish we have been attending, the priest though orthodox in doctrine, was becoming infected with some strange practices after attending various priestly and liturgical seminars.

What was one to do? I know, I'll attend some of the Eastern Catholic churches in Rochester. I had three choices. Two Ukrainian (one new calendar and one old calendar) and a small Melkite church. I started out with the Ukrainian churches and enjoyed them tremendously but I was still restless. Finally I went to the Melkite church. I had been there a few times at their old location about 7 years prior but at the time I couldn't connect. This time a whole different ball of wax. I loved the liturgy, the people were so friendly and open and there were even fellow Irish there.

I've been there almost two years now. As I mentioned to Irish Melkite (thanks for telling me about yourself, I enjoyed your post)in some ways it was like getting back to my true Irish roots and the beliefs of my forefathers before they were forced to give up their liturgy and practices by the English subjection of Ireland.
I'm waiting for my priest to return from a priest's conference and vacation to begin the formal process of changing churches officially. I know that I could continue to just attend but I cannot continue to live in two churches.

Many family and friends cannot understand why I want to formally change and it is hard to put into words. Part of it, such as the study of the theology and teaching of the Eastern church, is objective. But part of it is also subjective, all I can say is that the theology, liturgy and spirituality resonate in my soul in a way it never did as a Roman Catholic. It has also led to a broadening of my vision so I can see a much bigger picture than I was able to before. The boys are active in a way they never were before.
The boys and I serve at the altar, and they never had any wish to before even after being asked.

Well this is getting a little long so I'll wind this up. I'm looking forward to hearing from other Celts out there and how they ended up moving East.

Moladh duit, a Chr�ost,
(Praise to you, O Christ)

Terry

Well I must add, that not only is Terry's sons active, but he is as well.

Not only does Terry also serve at the altar, along with his sons and myself, but he also chants the Epistle very well!!


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Welcome home Terry.
Just met the priest from Rodchester, very nice guy.
Had a great celebration with the Melkites last week.
Stephanos I

Your tale sounds much like my own, except when I returned to the Church in 1979 it was in direct response to the witness of John Paul II and I have never been tempted by schismatics nor by Feeneyism. I also didn't live in Rochester, which is notorious among American dioceses for its heterodoxy, so that probably helped me not to overreact.
After returning to the Church I was fascinated by its universality and attended from time to time various other rites than the Roman: Melkite, Ruthenian, Ethiopian, Coptic, and Maronite. I also regularily attended the indult
Latin Mass. I always prefered the earlier forms of Christian art to the later, post-medieval styles [excepting Blessed Fra Angelico and a few other masters] and grew to love icons. I had always done art and started incorporating iconic styles into my art. I even attempted a few icons on my own but never completed one because of the frustration I always encountered. Nor could I afford any of the classes I heard about. Then a year and a half ago a friend of mine invited me to attend a class he was going to teach and offered me very favorable terms. It was a great week, held at a Romanian Catholic parish, and I attended the liturgy daily. By the end of the week I had a completed icon and a deep love of the Byzantine liturgy. I haven't turned back since and recently joined a Ruthenian parish, though we also have close ties with a local Romanian parish [our children attend their Montessori religious education classes]. I too find an affinity with my Celtic soul in the mysticism and more intuitive approach of the East, though unlike too many on this forum I also have a deep love for the West, at least in its more traditional aspects [Benedictinism, Franciscanism, certain devotional and doctrinal developments].
Anyway, always glad to meet other Byzantne Celts [my own heritage is more Scots and Ulster Presbyterian, with yet more Calvinists on the other, English side].

Christ is in our midst!


Dear brother Celt Turlough,


My story has been told before on this forum, so I will not bore you with the details. I will just tell you I am Antiochian Orthodox. You, David and I are neighbors, I live not far from you really. Needless to say I feel as you do, I have never felt so connected to the original faith of the ancient Celtic church. My family and I are also more involved in our parish than we ever were in the Roman church. It is a pleasure to meet a fellow irishman who is at home in the east.


Bail O Dia Ort!

Slainte chugat!

Michael

Hello to all,

Thanks for the responses. I have a theory that many of Celtic descent find a home in the East because of the mystical mindset of the Celts.

Daniel, it's interesting how you mentioned the subject of art. For years I have had a love for icons and have found much of modern Catholic art to be lacking and way too sentimental. I better watch it or I will get on a tear about the effeminate Christ of much Catholic art. Have you done much study in the old Celtic faith at all?

Michael, can you tell me where I can find your story in the posts. I may have seen it in the past but I would like to go back and read it again if I haven't already. Are you studying the Irish language. I'm attending a class here in Rochester.

Thanks for the kind words David, though sometimes I think I'm doing more caterwauling than chanting.

Go mbeanna� Dia daoibh,

Terry

Dear Turlough,

It was an Irish Melkite (no, not Neil here - someone who actually likes me ) who brought me into a deeper appreciation of my Eastern Christian spiritual heritage back in university.

When Fr. Serge Keleher lived in Toronto, he assisted me during my doctoral studies and introduced me to a number of subjects that I had, until then, only had a vague idea about.

My interest in the Celtic Church and Rite deepened as well - I've given two university lectures on Celtic Christianity and continue to study it.

There is a site that has an English translation of the Celtic liturgy, Office and the Rule of the Celi De, the monastic Friends of God - Celticchristianity.org. I'm NOT endorsing that group - only their work.

Fr. Geoffrey O'Riada used to have a Celtic Orthodox site with all sorts of information on it - I don't know if it is still around.

There are various Celtic Christian groups in North America, of course non-canonical, everything from the above group to others who have declared John Duns Scotus of the ninth century (not Bl. John Scotus Eriugena) and Morgan of Wales as saints. Morgan of Wales is also known to history as Pelagius.

Although he is named for the heresy of Pelgianism, there are those who argue he is not its true founder and that Pelagius is closer to the Cappadocian Fathers which caused the conflict with Augustine etc.

The Celtic spiritual traditions borrow heavily from the East - and in the Litany of Irish Saints there is mention made of the "Seven Coptic Monks" buried in Eire.

I visited the Holy Isle of Lerins where St Patrick was trained as a monk off the coast of Cannes in France. The island, that one may encircle on foot in about half an hour, has seven smaller monastic foundations, four of which are in ruins, with the main monastery, also in ruins, facing the Mediterranean.

Eastern monasticism from the Coptic Thebaid flourished here and this is where many an Irish monk learned about the Eastern Church's monastic experience.

The Celtic Rite, for example, is the only Western Rite where prostrations are done in the Eastern style.

The Celi De also practiced the Jesus Prayer, using prayer ropes of 150 and 33 knots.

They practiced 100 prostrations every second verse of Psalm 118/119 and continuing on until 100 prostrations were completed (the "Cross Vigil").

They performed a very Eastern "Shrine of Piety" - facing the four directions with arms outstretched reciting the Our Father three times in each direction.

They followed the Rule of St Pachomius in reciting the Psalms in groups of 12 - St Maelruain organized his Celtic Psalter in this way, in 12 groups of 12 and 13 psalms, beginning each group with an Our Father.

This organization of the Psalms later led to the development of the Psalter of Our Lady, the Rosary where each decade (Ten Hail Mary's represent a mystical Psalter) is headed with a Paternoster.

We know the Irish especially were a hardy race whose missionaries travelled in their "birinns" to parts unknown.

Christopher Columbus travelled to Ireland before his voyages to review the log-books of St Brendan the Navigator.

We know that Celtic missionaries travelled to Kyiv to visit St Olha to convert her to Celtic Christianity.

In fact, Ukrainian culture shares much with Celtic culture. The Celtic Cross is also an historic cross of the Kyivan Church of Ukraine and I wear one with Slavonic lettering around my neck right now.

The Cross on the grave of our national bard, Taras Shevchenko is a Celtic Cross.

As we know, the Celtic peoples began in the Carpathian mountains where the La Tene and Hallstadt cultures intermingled for the first time.

Alexander Carmichael's collections of Celtic prayers and poetry is an excellent resource. And I particularly like the novels of Nigel Tranter on Celtic history - his Columba, Margaret the Queen, David the Prince, Macbeth the King and even his trilogy on Robert the Bruce - these contain a wealth of information on the early Celtic Church.

I corresponded with Mr. Tranter and, for his 90th birthday, had my wife, who is a planner, name a street in Toronto after him.

After he died a few years back, I had a priest say Mass for him according the Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy.

The Celts also had the tradition of frequently saying the verse: O God come to my assistance, O Lord make haste to help me! They said this frequently, like the East says the Jesus Prayer and said this prayer after each Psalm and Our Father as well.

Working at the legislature, I developed three heritage laws for our Celtic ancestry - Tartan Day (April 6), an official provincial territorial Tartan and St Patrick's day as "Irish Heritage Day in Ontario."

When Robert the Bruce made his Declaration of Ardbroath, that document declared that the Scots came from Scythia in what is today Ukraine.

The document affirms that "Scottia" and "Scythia" are a play on the same basic name.

And this is why, it states, that St Andrew is the patron of Scotland as well as for Scythia.

Alex

Christ is in our midst!


Brothers Turlough and Alex, great posts!


Alex, that was a wonderful bit of Celtic history, I had heard alot of it before, but not all together. Great work, I am impressed! It just goes with what I have been telling other Celts (Most of whom think I'm nuts) that the Celtic church and the church of Kiev have so much in common and why.

Turlough, I agree with your thoughts as well, the Celts have always been very mystical folk, a perfect match for eastern spirituality. You can find the links to my past posts bu clicking on my name and then view recent posts. My story is under changing rites becomming byzantine catholic. The only gaelic I have learned I have read on line. Would love to be taking a course as you are.

Thank again you two,

Dia duit!

Michael

Dear Michael,

Yes, very good point! (Not on my post being excellent, the other point . . . ).

I'm just wondering out loud about whether the Irish immigrants to the Ukrainian Church are here because of any mystical connection with their Celtic ancestry - or because of a spirituality "famine" of sorts they experience in the Novus Ordo rite of the Western Church.

My friend, who is a Ukie priest, has a lot of Irish Ukrainians and they are mostly traditional Tridentinists who prefer the Byzantine Church.

What do you think is the Irish attraction to our Eastern Church and why they take to it like a snake to a woodpile sometimes?

Alex

Dear brother Alex,


Again I say, you have a wonderful insight into why things are the way things are. Speaking only for myself, and I was aware of my Celtic heritage throughout my discernment process, the thing that drew me east was the sense of things being less scholastic and more mystical. I read about the early Celtic church and wondered what things were like back then. How did they pray? How did they worship? What things kept them who they were? Had anything changed since the synod of Whitby to keep me from praying the way they did. Where they eastern or western in thought? If there was a change, what caused it? How were things then in relation to the Pope? In the end I reached the conclusion that I did by reading and re-reading all I could. Do some Irishman join the eastern churches because they are less liberal and more traditional? You bet! Have I met some who have done that? I sure have. If I remember correctly, all I met were fine members of their new parishes weather Orthodox or Catholic. I feel more at home somehow now than ever, and I know I am with the faith of our Fathers among the Saints, Aidan, Padraigh, Hilda, Brendan and Brigid included.

Bail O Dia Ort,
Michael

Dear Michael,

You should get in touch with Fr Serge Keleher in Dublin.

His Eastern Church is named for St Kevin of Glendalough (a huge Byzantine icon of him there!)

He has published the Divine LIturgy in BOTH Ukrainian and Gaelic - it is celebrated as such there as well. And he has published a gorgeous icon of St Patrick and of the Ukrainian Hieromartyr Bl. Nicholas Charnetsky who visited Ireland for a Eucharistic Congress and stayed with the Redemptoristines while in Dublin.

I think we may all undertake some Celtic practices in private such as the Shrine of Piety and the Cross Vigil.

The Celi De monks prayed the entire Psalter, in addition to the Divine Office, daily, and if they didn't finish, they said the Beatitudes 12 times.

They prayed the Beatitudes and the Magnificat regularly following each canonical Hour (and after prayers at meals).

Some of the practices condemned at the Synod of Whitby came as a surprise even to St Hilda who allowed the Synod to be held at her monastery.

St Dunchadh of Iona led the Celtic party. It would appear that the Celts took their Easter Communion on St Thomas Sunday, and not on Easter Sunday - believing one must give some more time in terms of preparedness.

There was the Celtic tonsure that upset the Romans and that matter of the paschal date .

The Celtic missionaries were sometimes called "Saint" even before their deaths. And Celtic monks could be married - the surname "MacNab" for example means "Son of the Abbot."

The Celtic Christians "sained" many things from the pagan Celtic ancestry. The Celtic American Society now marks November 1st as "Celtic New Year's Day" as the beginning of Samhain (or "Sowan").

St Brigid's Day is the beginning of Imbolc with Beltaine or May Day the beginning of spring, Lugnasadh the beginning of autumn.

We put up wreaths over chimneys and doors at Christmastime because the Celts believed these things to have great spiritual power as they remained green in winter. And so evil spirits couldn't come in through chimneys and doorways with wreaths on them.

We say "Bless you" when someone sneezes because the Celts believed that an evil spirit can enter us through our mouth or nostrils at that unguarded moment (we were supposed to pray constantly) and so we pray "Bless you" to keep any lurking evil spirit at bay.

The mistletoe was really worshipped by the Druids who wore liturgical gloves to retrieve it from the tops of oak trees.

We hug and kiss under the mistletoe by way of a Celtic tradition that said that the object was so holy that one must confirm that one was at peace and in love with everyone in its presence - otherwise desecration of the sacred mistletoe would occur.

To this day, the ministers at Yorkminster put on liturgical gloves and bring in a bundle of mistle toe at Christmas-time which is placed on a side altar.

St Ninian of Whithorn began the practice of even building Celtic churches in the middle of stone circles and in sacred groves of trees.

St Margaret of Scotland, a Roman Christian, was horrified at such things and believe the Celts to have Christianized pagan traditions associated with sun-worship - the haloed Cross is one example, although St Ninian seems to have developed it from the "Chi-Rho" symbol. There was also the Eucharistic interpretation of it where a round mill-stone was placed on top of a large Cross.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Fantastic!!!!!!!

Thanks this is great!

Michael

Dear Michael,

Actually, it is a shame that there is no Western Particular Celtic Churches today. Of course, the Church of Scotland was called the "Columban Church" after St Colum mac Felim O'Neill (Nine-Hostager, correct?).

St Colum or Columba as the later RC's called him, got into an argument, as you know, in Ireland over the rights to a book of Psalms. The Abbot told him he violated "copyright" .

Colum asked how the Word of God could have "copyright" or words to that effect.

Soon two armies formed to fight over this matter and the army on the side of St Colum placed the psalter that was causing so much trouble on a pole as a war-flag.

About three thousand men died in the subsequent battle and St Colum was banished from Ireland - and travelled to Scotland to Christianize that country that had sent St Patrick to Christianize Ireland earlier.

Colum chose Iona for his base and when asked why that island he replied, "Because I can't see Ireland from it and will feel the temptation to return to Holy Eire less . . ."

At the battle of the Bannockburn in Scotland, Colum's Psalter, called the "Breck-Bennock", was brought out on a pole as Robert the Bruce's soldiers knelt before it as their standard and prayed the Our Father.

Feisty bunch, those Celts!

Alex

Alex, maybe you can help me. I am a direct descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages. Was he related to St. Columba? If so, then I am too!

I had heard that Scotland was named after Scota, the mother of the first four kings of Ireland, who were all sons of King Milesius of Spain.

I've also heard that part of the reason some Irish are so dark-headed and dark-eyed is because some of the Spanish men from the Armada destroyed at the Isle of Wight sailed north and around of Scotland, and crashed in Ireland. (I also heard that some crashed in Scotland, too, but that the Scots ate them. Apparently the Irish were a little more accomodating ).

Logos Teen

Well, if he was a direct descendant of Niall, like the websites say, I guess I am related to him.

Logos Teen

Brothers,

This is a great way to learn for me, keep this great talk up!!!!!!!!!

Michael

Logos Teen

The story of survivors from the Spanish Armada leaving numerous descendants in Ireland is pretty much a myth. The Black haired, brown eyed Irish are actually remnants of the Bronze Age Pre Celtic peoples who once inhabited Ireland. Their descendants can also be found in Cornwall and South Wales.

Alex

You forgot to mention that St Columba saw the Loch Ness Monster in 565 AD, then again, St Brendan the Navigator also saw some pretty strange things.

Dear Lawrence,

That is a myth, but it is a "fun myth" when one refers to the "Black Irish."

Our new Irish Premier has dark hair and is jokingly called "Black Irishman."

Yes, St Columba did have an encounter with the notorious and vicious "Water Horse" that some say was the Loch Ness Monster.

Anyone who is interested in a very readable (and affordable) novel about the life and adventures of St Columba of Iona - I heartily recommend Nigel Tranter's "Columba" - I read it once a year each summer!

His "Druid Sacrifice" is excellent too as it is about the mother of the founder of Angela's city of Glasgow - St Kentigern Mungo.

His "Margaret the Queen" is about St Margaret and the beginning of the end of the Celtic Rite in Britain, but it does highlight certain aspects of Celtic Christianity.

Alex

Dear Friends,

I've picked up info here and there about Celts in other places in Europe.

There are actually seven, not six Celtic nations: Ireland, Isle of Man, Wales, Cornwall, Highland Scotland, Britanny and Galizia in Spain.

In fact, at the time of Macbeth the King, the upper half of the Iberian peninsula was called "Celtiberia" and Macbeth could converse with them in an understandable way.

Anything with the addition of "wal" meaning "wild" refers to Celtic identity or ancestry.

Thus, Wales and Cornwall, but also Wallonia in Belgium, Wallachia in Romania (St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv was a Wallachian) and the walnuts which were a Celtic delicacy.

Of course, "Wallace" too!

The city of Sevastopil was originally built by Celts.

Alex

Alex,

Methinks you have gotten too taken up in the romanticism and myth of we Celts. Even we don't believe all our own legends - but we try to not let others be aware of that.

Despite the Celtic festivals held there (and damn near anywhere else in the world that they'll let us dance, sing, talk, fiddle, or play our pipes),
Galizia is not and cannot be accurately described as a Celtic nation. Certainly not any more than any of the myriad other kingdoms (European and otherwise) thru which we Celts passed, pillaged, plundered, or (in our later, more civil, or at least less barbaric days) prosletyized, and, in some instances, and for some periods, settled.

The other six which you named are the only lands into which the Celts settlement was of such permanence to justify their designation as Celtic and Gaelic-speaking. And, you short-change Scotland by delimiting the label of "Celtic" to the Highlands. Despite the Sassanach influence, there always was and continues to be a strong Celtic presence and influence throughout the Lowlands.

Quite honestly, despite a thorough search of the web and my fairly extensive library on Celtic, Scots, Irish, etc. history, the only reference I can find to this is in your own on-line article.
The Breath of the Spirit from the North: Celts in Kyiv [unicorne.org]

'strangers' or 'foreigners' is the consistently and routinely accepted etymology of 'wal' in place-names and other usages associated with the Celts.

"Although Celtic-speaking peoples were living in Britain before the arrival of the invaders from Friesland and Jutland whose languages would eventually develop into English, it was the Celts and not the invaders who came to be called “strangers” in English. Our words for the descendants of one of the Celtish peoples, Welsh, and for their homeland, Wales, come from the Old English word wealh, meaning “foreigner, stranger, Celt.” Its plural wealas is the direct ancestor of Wales, literally “foreigners.” The Old English adjective derived from wealh, w�lisc or welisc, is the source of our Welsh. The Germanic form for the root from which wealh descended was
*walh–, “foreign.”"
American Heritage Dictionary [bartleby.com]

"The name "Cornwall" comes from Cornovii, meaning hill dwellers, and Waelas, meaning strangers"
Cornwall [cornwall-calling.co.uk]

"Wales - "land of the foreigners", from the Germanic 'welsche' the term used by Anglo-Saxon invaders of the Britsh Isles for the native Celts they encountered. The Welsh native toponym "Cymraig" meant "land of the people". Several areas in Europe were named by the ancient Germans in the same way, the term used only for places inhabited by poeples of Celtic or Latin descent, including "Wallonia" in Belgium, "Valais" (in Switzerland), and the archaic "Welschenland" a term for Italy."
Sub-National Place-Name Etymologies [nationmaster.com]

and

"Wallachia - "land of the foreigners"
Sub-National Place-Name Etymologies [nationmaster.com]

"We also have attested once in Old English the compound walhhnutu in a document from around 1050; its next recording appears in 1358 as walnottes. This eventually became walnut in Modern English, which is thus literally the “foreign nut.” The nut was “foreign” because it was native to Roman Gaul and Italy."
American Heritage Dictionary [bartleby.com]

"WALLACE - Name Meaning & Origin
Last Name Meaning & Related Resources for the Surname WALLACE

Definition: A Scottish form of WALLIS, from the Old French 'le waleis," meaning "foreigner or stranger." Often used to denote native Welsh and Bretons.

Surname Origin: Scottish, English, Welsh

Alternate Surname Spellings: WALLIS, WALLISH, WELSH, WALSH, WALES "
Surname Origins [genealogy.about.com]
Alex, anything I have ever read, and every site on-line dealing with the history of Sevastopil, credits Catherine the Great. If you can point to a source crediting us Celts, we'll gladly accept the kudos.

Many years,

Neil

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
For those that are interested in where the Celtic Liturgy orginated, look up information of the Gallican Rite of the Roman Church. Even though this rite is based in Lyon, France. It was the transmitter of the Celtic Rites to Ireland, Britain, and Scotland. This is my rearly shown Scottish side showing, don't look under the kilt .

Poosh baShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Dear Neil (Nine-Hostager),

Thank you for such a copious and comprehensive post! The references you cite will come in handy for my next presentation on the Celts in the spring!

Yes, "wild" or "stranger" - that was debated at the last conference I attended.

Of course, those words meant different things way back when and there seems to be agreement that both referred to the fact that the Celts moved around quite a bit and were never in one spot too long, as you also suggest.

"Wild" meant simply "not rooted" in one spot and "stranger" also suggested something similar.

The walnuts were popular with Celts, nonetheless, but I didn't pay too much attention to sources for that - some think I'm already nuts!

The Celts were remarkably all over Europe and certainly Lowland Scotland has strong Celtic influences, probably from the Brythonic Celts.

As for Celtiberia, Nigel Tranter did much research into that area for his novel, "Macbeth the King." He received several Celtic history awards for his work and he once sent me a bibliography which I could have possibly stored somewhere. The language of Galiz is studied avidly in Spain and if they are not "Celtic" then someone should perhaps write to them and tell them to stop considering themselves as such - Celtic conferences usually do number them among the Celtic nations, however one may define them today.

There was the fact of the wandering of nations and cultural criss-crossing over Europe - which resulted in such seeming abnormalities as the Basque linguistic structure having similarities with Ukrainian etc.

I'm just breaking into this particular area (when I'm bored with Eastern Church issues and Slavic concerns ).

(And, yes, I know a reference for the Sevastopil matter - but it'll have to wait when I return to university. The last conference also referenced it.)

Anyway, thank you for the copious notes and perspectives that I'll be sure and put to good use.

Happy All Saints of Ireland Day!

Alex

Dear Alex,

You definitely are a wealth of information. I'm amazed at the abundance of facts you have concerning the Celts. Of course in the posts talking about Celtic nations, I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Galatians in Asia Minor during the time of St. Paul.

I'm familiar with Celticchristianity.org and have enjoyed their site many times. I've also enjoyed Orthodoxireland.com as well.

I appreciated your mention of Pelagius. I have read some of his works including his Commentary on Romans. To be honest I don't see what the big deal was, except that he teed Augustine off. I find him to be very Eastern in orientation, though I would agree that he may have overemphasized man's ability to live the Christian life, though he didn't deny that a man could do it without grace.

I approach this next area with some hesitation. The area that I was raised in has a good size population of Highland Scots, one of whom was a former teach of mine. He has taught me much and is versed in the old ways which were handed down through the family for generations. Part of that heritage was spiritual. Celtic Christianity may not be quite as dead as many believe. I know of your interest and love of things Celtic. I had a talk with my teacher last night and asked if he minded that I passed on his e-mail address to you. He said that he had no problem with this and would be pleased to talk with you. If you are interested please send me a private post and I will pass on his e-mail address. He and one of his grandsons are accomplished workers in traditional Celtic art as well. My teacher in wood carving and his grandson has worked in wood but has also began stone carving as well. Unfortunately I don't have that website handy at the moment.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Terry

Dear Terry,

I would love to speak with your teacher!

I've moved my e-mail address and I'll update in a minute to enable private messaging.

Yes, the Galatians were Celts in fact, as you say! And St Paul does mention the Scythians as well.

Robert the Bruce's Declaration of Ardbroath does affirm that "Scythia" and "Scottia" come from the same root and nation - which is why St Andrew is honoured as a common patron for both East Slavs and Scots (not only because St Regulus brought his relics to Scotland).

But the real Celtic experience is in the asceticism which we can hardly hope to emulate - but we can experience some of the depth of Celtic spirituality, its devotion to the psalms, its office and the lives of the Celtic saints.

Tranter goes into details about the Celtic "Cashels" or monasteries, their daily work and so on.

Interestingly, and as Meyendorff himself notes, the Celtic Christians drove the Roman Church in Britain "bananas" because the Celtic Abbot, not the Bishop, was the focus of ecclesial authority.

This was largely because there were no urban centres around in those areas and so the monastery with its Abbot became the centre of church life.

But Scotland really was divided into Highland and Lowland parts and the historic religious development showed the distinction, Celtic influence in the south notwithstanding.

The Highlanders were of the Celtic Rite for the longest time when the Lowlanders were of the Roman Rite.

When Canada received its Loyalists following the American Revolution, we received two kinds of Scots - the Catholic Highlanders and the Protestant Lowlanders - and this is noted from the very beginning of Loyality immigration here.

Alex Carmichael's research in the Highlands, however, showed the great extent to which Celtic hymns and folklore survived the centuries among the people.

Our Irish chaplain at university used to tell us all sorts of Irish stories (he was a missionary during the Biafran war and was taken prisoner and tortured - but he never got into details).

He came from a large family and the warmest spot in the home was in his mother's chair by the hearth.

When mother got up to go to the kitchen, the children all scrambled to get into her chair.

Their mother then turned and said, "Would you climb into my grave as quickly?"

God bless the Irish and Happy All Saints of Eire Day!

Erin Go Bragh!

Alex

Dear Terry,

Another point that came to mind is that studying Celtic Christianity is good for Easterners who somehow believe that the East is somehow superior to the West in terms of asceticism etc.

The Celts beat us out every time!

The Celtic saints standing in the cold water so as not to fall asleep when reciting Psalms . . .

There was a rule that when a bishop died, the Psalter had to be recited for the repose of his soul 600 times . . .

And the Cross Vigil is 100 prostrations at once - not an easy thing even for someone in as great shape as me!

The Celts loved moving to the four directions in cross-wise fashion - just like Eastern bishops do at the beginning of Pontifical Liturgies.

And they did so not only for their "Shrine of Piety" but also before they read scripture.

But what is truly inspirational for me is the way the Celts blessed the right hand of baptismal candidates to "empower it" and make it sacred for the work of performing the Sign of the Holy Cross.

And if a Christian came to them from another Church - he or she would be accepted but had to have the rite of blessing of the right hand done.

This is like the Old Rite tradition of having a pillow or something on the floor when making prostrations so as not to sully the right hand.

I once met a priest who studied the Celtic traditions and I asked if he knew the rite for blessing the right hand.

He did - and he did for me right there and then!

I'm now an adopted Celt, it would seem . . .

(I keep watching reruns of Braveheart . . .)

Alex

And I thought the ONLY Celtics I knew were my Irish-American brother-in-law and Larry Bird and his Boston Celtics!

Of course, everybody here in Chicago claims to be Celtic, or Irish for that matter, on St. Pat's Day.

Our parade IS a festive and joyous occasion for all: African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Italian-Americans, Indian-Americans, Native Americans, Eastern European-Americans, and what have you; everybody and everything turn green, including all branches of the Chicago River, led by our Irish Hizzoner, Mayor Richard M. Daley!!

Ah, to be a leprechaun just for one day!!!

AmdG

Dear Amado,

I don't know, Big Guy, your smiley's looking pretty green to me!

Canada's coat of arms has the Harp of Tara in it together with shamrocks.

We have a very large St Patrick's Day parade - I wrote the proposed legislation for an Irish heritage day on March 17th.

After formal legislative debates in the House, the politicians all got up and sang a rendition of "When Irish eyes are smilin' . . ."

May the road rise to meet y'a
and may the wind be ever at your back
And until we meet again
May the Lord hold you in the
hollow of His Hand

Alex

I believe I read somewhere that the O'Rourke clan is actually descended from the house of Rurik.Anyone know anything about this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Such history from a small group of hardy folk! All of us have heritage to be proud of. It's all of us together who make the body of believers. I am proud to be a Celt with both Scotch and Irish relatives with the same surname. The Irish and Scotch have given much to both Canada and the US over the last several hundred years. I am most proud that I am in a small way trying to stay true to that ancient faith they knew.

Bail O Dia ort
Michael

You may well have Scotch in your blood, but it is from a bottle, not from your ancestors. The term is "Scots" or "Scottish" if you are refering to a people and not a drink.
And Alex, you are a veritable font of knowledge. I find myself wanting to agree with you in spite of myself because you can be so entertaining. Now about that sabbatical...

Brother Daniel,

Perhaps a wee drop now and again...........


Michael

I would just like to tell a story that my teacher had told me why there was friction between the Celtic Church and the Roman Church based in Canterbury. When Pope Gregory the Great had sent Augustine to be the bishop of the Saxons, the native Celtic Church was unsure of how they should
respond to Augustine. They went to a hermit noted for his sanctity and asked whether they should submit to him or not. He told them that if when they came in to him, if he rose and greeted them then they were to submit to him and accept him as a brother. But, if he stayed seated
then they were to recognize him as a proud man and to have nothing to do with him.

Guess which Augustine of Canterbury did?

Terry

Bless, Father Al!

Yes, "O'Rourke" actually is descended from the Varangian Royal line of Rurik members of whom settled on the west coast of Scotland in the tenth century.

There is another aristocratic family in Scotland that is descended from the East Slavs, "Bohun" whose members fought on the side of Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn and throughout the hero-king's life.

Tranter actually makes direct mention of the Bohuns in his historic novels.

The Celtic construction of names is the same as among the East Slavs with the basic three names of Christian name, Patronym and Surname.

In Ireland and Scotland, as you know, the middle name is always "mac + father's name." In Wales, instead of "mac," it is "ap" as in St Liuddad ap Dintag of Wales ("Lloyd").

And the Ukrainian Kozak Hetman, Bohdan Khmelnitsky, had at least one Scottish general in his army fighting the Poles.

He said of him, "We never understood a single word he said, but he fought like a demon in battle and we were glad to have him on our side."

St Volodymyr the Great was himself a cousin of St Olaf of Norway. Before him, there is also the locally venerated Varangian Christian Princes, Askold and Dir. I don't know why they weren't placed formally in the calendar as yet - St Olha built churches over their graves and I think it is safe to say they were Passion-Bearers if not martyrs.

After the Battle of Hastings, the daughter of King Harold of Hastings, Gytha, went to Sweden where she met the English missionary there, St Sigfridus or Sigfried. Gytha then went to Kyiv where she married St Volodymyr Monomachos (glorified recently by the Orthodox Church) and, by him, bore the next ruler of Kyivan Rus', St Mstislav-Harold who was given the name of his royal English grandfather.

The English Orthodox do venerate King Harold as a saint as well.

Alex

Dear Michael,

Very well said!

The Celtic Rite has, I believe, much more in common with the Eastern spirituality and traditions and you are right on in saying that!

The Celtic monks were the only Western monks who made prostrations - as the East does, for instance.

And we may all adopt certain Celtic practices to do in private. Certainly, the Celtic saints are all part of our common, universal Orthodox-Catholic patrimony.

Your point on Pelagius is also well taken.

Fr. Geoffrey O'Riada did a paper on him - and I too remember conferences on him in university.

While there certainly is such a thing as the heresy of Pelagianism, it is less clear whether Pelagius himself had anything to do with it.

In any event, he was not ill thought of because of his theology as much as for his opposition to Augustine.

St John Cassian also opposed Augustine on similar points . . .

And for this the Roman Church refused to honour Cassian as a saint - except locally at Marseilles (Marsilius).

But Cassian is a full saint in the East.

The other Celtic theologian of the 9th century is John Scotus Eriugena (not the Bl. John Duns Scotus who developed the Immaculate Conception doctrine).

There are independent Celtic church groups in the U.S. who have themselves canonized both Morgan of Wales or Pelagius and John Scotus - and have places of worship dedicated to them.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

There is a fine line between "wanting to agree" and "agreeing!"

God bless you and do get some help with your avatar!

Alex

Alex,

So were the right hands of the Celts "more powerful" in blessing themselves than non-Celtic Christian who didn't have their right hands blessed?

The only way to make sense of this would be either:
a) the right hands of the Celts were more powerful because they were blessed, or
b) the practice of blessing the right hand was superfluous because it doesn't bring any added "power"

I've wondered about this for some time now. Aren't these the only two logical conclusions?

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

Well, the Byzantine Churches do indeed bless the hands during the Mystery of Baptism - just like in the Celtic and Sarum Rites.

But the Celtic Rite places a solid emphasis as to the "why" the right hand is blessed.

In the Latin Rite, the hands of the priest are especially blessed with oil to consecrate them for the offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass - and it is, of course, a part of the ritual of the Sacrament of the Priesthood.

I think that rite of blessing the right hand is a sacramental only. It doesn't confer any special sacramental "character" or anything like that.

A tradition that serves to remind those who practice it that our bodies are Temples of the Holy Spirit and that our right hand is empowered always to do what Christians should always be doing - invoking the Grace of Jesus Christ on ourselves, others and on the whole world through the Sign of the Cross.

In the Sarum Rite, Communion was distributed by the Priest under the Cross (or "Rood") above the Royal Doors of the Rood Screen (or Iconostasis).

This was to signify that we commune of the Divine Fruit of the Tree of Life - the Cross.

Alex

double posts aye........ well I oughta......

Bail Dia ort!


Alex, please find MORE stuff, I have learned more from you in the last week than I have in reading for years! This is wonderful history, our history, and I just can't get enough!


Many years,
Michael

Dear Son of the Celts!

Actually, I've been holding back on a lot of this - I didn't think people would be interested in hearing about it . . .

Sometimes it makes one feel good that one is wrong!

Alex

In a purely geographic sense, Celts traditionally move West rather than East. Just where the Celts originated is disputed, but it was probably somewhere in Asia - on the basis of musical evidence, believe it or not, some argue for India. But there is a strong traditional mystic/mythic belief in a "Land of the West" awaiting us. C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien both incorporated this myth into their fiction. Perhaps the authentic Byzantium is now in Hy-Brasil (Atlantis to the non-Celts). Incognitus

Dear Alex,


I, for one, can never get enough history,weather tradition or set in concrete. Thanks for sharing anything you may have.


Michael

Dear Incognitus,

Actually, the latest research shows that the Celts began when the La Tene and Hallstadt cultures met together somewhere in the . . . Carpathian Mountains a very long time ago.

One thing that fascinates me about the Celts, but not the only thing, is the very real connections between Celtic and Slavic culture.

Such is affirmed also in the Declaration of Ardbroath in the time of King Robert the Bruce.

Alex

I hope that Alex is not implying that the Celts are really a lost garrison of White Croats who made good! And I find no musical resemblance whatever between traditional Celtic music and prostopinije. Incognitus

Dear Celticson,

There truly are a great number of connections between the Celtic and Byzantine traditions.

The Celts, unlike other Western Rites, worshipped the Holy Trinity, or as Western liturgists would say, "directly to the Three Persons of the Trinity" - as does the Byzantine and other Eastern traditions.

There is, in Celtic spirituality, an "intoxication" with the mystery of the Holy Trinity that is uniquely Celtic - with different emphases than in the East.

The Celts emphasized Theosis through Divine Grace according to a pattern that would be recognized in the East.

More later . . my wife is calling me.

Alex

Dear Alex,

My wife calls me all the time too!!!! Can't always say what she calls me, but......... Anything else that comes to you, send it along!

Thanks again,

Michael

Alex

To the best of my knowledge, the De Bohun family in Scotland can only be traced as far back as Normandy. It has been suggested that the family name could have originated in Bohemia, but it may also have been a descritive term for the family's wandering origins.

So there were Scotsmen serving with the Ukrainians against the Poles. Not surprising, but the Poles probably had alot more.

Dear Lawrence,

Yes, I've read that too - Normandy!

There were also "Bohuns" in Ukraine - I'll continue searching for info regarding this.

I've researched my own family background and my wife's.

My grandmother was a "Jablonowskie" descended from Count Auguste Jabonlowskie, who was from mixed Polish-Ukrainian background and who fought the Turks.

There is a statue to him in Cracow and the Jablonowskie family has a chapel in Czestochowa.

I'm proud to say this family goes all the way back to St Olha and St Vladimir (and St Alexander Nevsky).

As for the Scots, in fact the Scots Presbyterians loved to fight Catholic armies!

St Theodore Ostrozhki also adopted war tactics from the Protestant Hussites (General Jan Zizka) in his battles with the Poles.

There was also the class aspect - lower class Poles fought on the side of the Kozaks and upper class Ukrainians fought on the side of the Poles.

The leader of the Poles who destroyed the Kozak army at Berestechko was a Ukrainian "Janissary" or traitor - his sword, by which he killed his own people, is on display at a Polish museum today.

Alex

Alex

There's also a Bohemian town called Jablonec which is just south of the Silesian Polish border. Maybe that name ties in with your ancestry as well.

Dear Lawrence,

Perhaps - but there was "Jablonsky" and other families as well.

To attain nobility for military services, which is how my ancestor, Count Auguste, did it, often involved a change of name.

In the 18th century, Timothy Sokoliv was admitted to the upper echelons of church administration and was then called "Sokolovsky" and was so called when he was consecrated a bishop.

He is today known as St Tikhon of Zadonsk and Voronezh.

Alex

If I may add a littel to your understanding. The term Cetli come fro the Greek work Keltua --or "clay pot" The ancient Celts cremated thier dead and buried them in clay pots. they originated alont the Danube River and may have dominated European civilization except that the Organization oand tactics of Roman Armies defeated tyhem. they were warrier poets. There are many locations of thier buriel signts being unearthed all over Europe Fran and Spain as well as Germany. While my nephews wre attending Washington and Lee University in VA lthe history prof there asked them how t;heyt could have an Irish name "patrick Paden" and a "hapsburg nose" a feature that they inherited from my father. he told t;hem that the Irish name Padden is a corruption of a Czech name. We have a Celtic Ortoodox parich near here in Akron Ohio. The Celtic Church is and has been Eastern all along. The Book of Kell" if a direct and unedited tranlation of an Orthodox text in Syriac. =-- The pro;bqbler original source of Celtic communion and anticedents. Keep going in your Irish History and Easte;rn Church reaffiliation. My sister amrried an Irishman etc. Yours in Christ Clifford