www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Some Positive Suggestions

Mr. Administrator,
You asked for positive suggestions and not sarcasm. OK. Here it goes ...

I would like to throw out some ideas that do work as demonstrated in other church jurisdictions, both Catholic and Orthodox (and in business).

1: Planting the Vineyard.

Communication.
A better system of getting the information out is needed. How many in our parishes even heard that we have a monastic community in the southern Californian desert that adheres to a Byzantine rule of monasticism? I don't ask this question sarcastically, but matter-of-factly. Even when I first attended a vocation moleben there was absolutely nothing said about the diaconate even though they were taking names for such a program. The only time I realize that we have a women's monastic community in Uniontown is at the Otpust. Other than that I never know they exist. I know they do, but we don't see them in our neck of the woods. Literature is lacking as well as promotional means. We had a vocation moleben thing going and a vocation icon being sent around and a "called by name" program where people can send in names of potential vocations, but all three eventually died out. We prayed for vocations but have ignored the ones who do answer; we enlisted parishioners to take the vocation icon home and pray during a week's time, but many have asked what vocations they were praying for since they have no idea; the called by name thing was fruitless because those submitting names would never get feedback that it got to the right people (i.e., the powers-that-be). I suggest that our vocation boards and "committees" (how I hate that word as well as "blue-ribbon-panels") get hopping and put together a well-written brochure together with all our other Eastern Catholic churches to show that we do have seminaries, monasteries, deacon programs, cantor schools, etc. that exist and are operative. When I first entered the seminary back in 1981, I had in my suitcase a booklet with every religious and seminary community in it with a description about them. If I never swiped this booklet from our parish narthex (it was sitting on the heat register not being read) I would have never known that we have such communities. How much effort does it take for such communities to take seriously their vocation issues and address it in a positive and informative way? How about a directory in the back of the book with contact names and phone numbers and email addresses? Follow-up is greatly needed by those who represent these communities as well as the administration at our seminary. Communication is poor when those who responsible never forward applications to the church authorities. Communication has to be timely too. Waiting six months to learn that one's application was never known by one's bishop can be a problem for those who do answer the call for vocations. Pastors should also be aware of what is out there rather than not be included in receiving literature on programs that other pastors get if they too have vocation-applicants. Nobody should be left in the dark.

Websites.
If Mr. Administrator never came up with this website would our Archdiocese have developed their own website? Parma has their own; Passaic has their own; and Van Nuys has one too. But Pittsburgh doesn't invest in this medium. Take a good look at the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese webpage and see how serious they are about themselves and how well organized their site is. There are even some small Orthodox jurisdictions that have their own website and really help convey a lot of information. Check out ROCOR's page, and the OCA or how about the GOA? But where-O-where has Pittsburgh been? I don't offer this as a negative criticism of our Archdiocese - only an observation.

Lay/Youth Missionary Program.
The Mormons expect at least two years missionary service from their youth. Can't we expect the same from ours? If not two dedicated and fulltime years, why not one or two summers? Here is something that our Byzantine Youth can sink their teeth into. What models of evangelism out there can we incorporate and use for our youth?

Minor Orders.
Cold calling can be quite expensive and self-defeating. Hoping that a vocation just comes out of the blue is wishful thinking. There is this thing called "agriculture"; it is different from hunting and scavenging. Why can't we follow the way of our Sister Orthodox by ordaining sub-deacons and lectors for our parishes? Why not prepare a vineyard with more-than-potential vocations in the form of minor orders? What is wrong with a high school graduate continuing his service at the altar? I find it silly to think that service at the altar should stop at high school graduation simply because one is too tall and "old" to be doing it anymore. Nonsense! One can still pursue secular careers but having this service will keep folks with their foot in the door of either future diakonia or the like. When one marries, he and his bride will have to agree on the likelihood of future ministry if need be. Today, many men are not attached to the church in any ministry and when they do fill the call to ministry they have to get themselves and their spouses quickly up-to-date on what that entails. Don't you think having, let's say, one hundred sub-deacons and lectors, that the chances of vocations in the future will be more likely than hunting and scavenging for a cold-call? I suggest that we keep the idea of ministry warm in the hearts of our youth. In the business world this is called "hiring from within."

Outside Clergy.
The duct-tape practice of shepherd borrowing and stealing has to go. Sorry if this sounds sarcastic to any degree, but it is a solution in search of a bigger problem. Eventually, we will have to be content with a presbyterate that is 100% bi-ritual and/or transritualists because we can't seem to muster the courage to grow our own potatoes. Importing priests from oversees is another similar characteristic of a church that cannot provide for its own existence. We even accept married Orthodox clergy but we won't offer ordination to a cradle. In all of this we must recognize the sublimimal message being sent today like in the past: we can't accept you but we will accept outsiders. Eventually, this cold-shoulder gets across and gets communicated through the grapevine. Potential vocations sense the horrendous built-in obstacles and seek ministry elsewhere, either other Catholic communities (Eastern or Latin) or Orthodox jurisdictions because other bishops have a system or process to offer that is real and that works. Our church shouldn't always be a supplier of vocations to other churches. Something is horribly wrong when we accept outsiders but give reason to our own vocations to seek a future elsewhere.

Personal Advertising.
Bad experiences and ill-feelings get communicated too. When I was cherishing the thoughts of going to the seminary to study to be a priest twenty years ago, our own clergy advised me not to attend our own seminary at all costs (for reasons I never was told). In marketing, it costs seven times to undo bad publicity and advertising than initial publicity. When our clergy attempts to prevent their own vocations attending their own seminary formation program it can end up being a disaster. We also have to take into consideration the fact that the majority of our clergy are for 'optional' celibacy (read: allow married priests). Why WOULD they recommend a celibate priesthood to a friend in the parish if they themselves are against it? The failure of our clergy pounding the pavement recruiting young men to become priests as it is today with mandatory celibacy is a serious marketing issue. Many vocations end where they begin: at the parish. Many of our clergy are for minor orders, but this doesn't happen either. After awhile, our greatest link to future ministers, clergy, gets exhausted asking for things that never seem to happen. Eventually, we end up: (1) attaining outside clergy (bi-ritualists) to minister our parishes, (2) innovate Extraordinary Eucharist Ministers of the like since we don't have minor orders to help out, (3) close the parish down or (4) reject the vocations we do get because we need candidates that will meet outside requirements instead. In the meantime, we kill off the chance of new communities since ONLY a celibate priest is required for pastoral ministry. Many Orthodox communities do not have a full-time priest - so they have the local deacon, sub-deacon, reader, catechist or layperson to manage the mission. What is wrong with that? Didn't we have "circuit parishes" before?

Pastoral Advisory Boards.
Many times, the PABs are mere rubber-stamps of the pastor's ideas. They are worthless endeavors wasting precious time. Some of the documented participants haven't attended a meeting for a long time. We have to realize that some structures don't work and must be re-evaluated. Some companies have visiting executives that "give ear" to the suggestions and complaints of the personnel in the context of privacy and confidentiality. It also prevents pastors from grading their own papers.

2: Harvesting the Vineyard.

Directorship:
There is nothing worst that having a vocation director who is against vocations; or a deacon director who doesn't want deacons. The choice of a director of vocations (for any ministry) is important. If there is a process for applications and board approval it should work smoothly. One shouldn't be sent here-and-there with the eparchial board members being unaware that vocations are being sent down dead-end streets. All applications for vocations received should be acknowledged with a letter and signature of the bishop and vocation board chair. We are talking about a process and that process should be understood also by those pastors who have vocations in their parishes.

Responsibility.
Those who have been given the responsibility to direct a vocation program must be reasonably apt to handle it. Honesty and professionalism must be present in the person's character. A spiritual director should be chosen immediately after sending in one's application. If the application gets lost or never makes it to the authorities, then one's spiritual director should have the right to call the director on the bishop's carpet to remedy mishandled applications. Responsibility, efficiency and Christian charity must be demonstrated by those "contact persons" between the bishop and the vocation applicant thus dispelling any chance of gross dysfunctionality. A third-party lay panel should be involved to serve as a monitoring device to check off all steps and documents between the eparchy and the applicant.

Vocation Boards.
If the number of committee members on our vocations boards far outnumber the number of vocations (like 3 to 1), then it is time to cut out a few bodies, especially those who for some reason or another don't participate in meetings with applicants. The number of policies and applications given to vocations should also be limited to one and put in a safe location so they don't get lost.

3: The Program:

Types of Education.
The Orthodox have demonstrated that a correspondence program of studies is more suited than a brick-and-mortar seminary institution. Some don't have seminaries, but they do have theological education that works well. What exactly is the cost of running a brick-and-mortar institution for only three seminarians? Currently, I am in the deacon program as well as a graduate studies program at a local university. Can't one's major be taken at a local college or university and the basics be taken with intensive classes (one to two weeks per year with correspondence papers due the rest of the year)? This is working in our current deacon program (the one in Pittsburgh; don't know about Passaic's deacon program). And does that one to two-week intensive have to be done at a seminary institution? Why not a hotel or retreat house? Why only Pittsburgh? A fixed location for a seminary demands our clergy or lay professors to be dedicated to one particular locale. We also miss out on the many clergy who have doctorates who can help in education in a correspondence format (as the Antiochians do). Has anyone done a study on the amount of talent and higher education out there who would be willing to be paid a reasonable stipend/salary to mentor and monitor certain courses for students throughout the Metropolia? Wouldn't this benefit both the educated clergy and the church? Wouldn't this provide a more efficient method of education? Nobody is called to be a "seminarian." Businesses and educational institutions have broken out of the brick-and-mortar shackles and have also cut costs in doing so. If some educators don't mind traveling a bit, they might just see our parishes out there for who they are preparing tomorrow's ministers for. It is a didactic approach for both the educator and the student. A seminary or theological school should give its students good and 'real' reasons for attending. Comments that nobody will hire a Byzantine theologian should be silenced. Many attend Orthodox theological schools for reasons other than becoming teachers or clergy. In my biblical studies program, there are students who attend for their own spiritual welfare. They also do it for fun, which may seem ludicrous for some to comprehend.

Teleconferencing.
At work we are able to communicate with our mother company in Canada and parent-owner company in Germany in one sitting. We have purchased a teleconferencing machine/TV/camera and are able to get that 'face-to-face' experience without the travel cost. Everthing is real time in audio and visual. Camera angles and sound volume along with fax machines and email-Intranet capabilities make communication easy and efficient. Can't our parishes and/or eparchies come up with a system of education whereby our educators (wherever they may be located) can hold classroom discussions with vocations (all types) far away? Just wondering. This would give an opportunity for our educated clergy and monastics and layfolks to teach.

Practical Pastoral Work.
Unfortunately, the seminarian of today and yesterday lives a pre-fabricated lifestyle. Neither a monk or a free adult, he lives in a setting that is conducive for turmoil, both internal and relational. I know of no seminary that didn't have some sort of strife. We send priestly candidates to an institution for eight years outside parish life. Yes, we have them go through "pastoral work" but that is nothing like being in one's parish week-to-week. How can one learn to relate when one is actually removed from the environment one is preparing to minister in?

Idea Genaration.
Instead of re-re-re-re-re-inventing the wheel, why not gather intelligence information on every type of theological program out there using different mediums of education? How do the Orthodox do it? the Baptists? the Evangelicals? the Mormons? etc. Must everything be conducted as so radically "new" to that we fail to investigate their worthiness and ability to deliver?

4: The Candidate's Marital Status.

Mandatory Celibacy.
Notice that I did NOT say just "celibacy." I wrote "mandatory" celibacy. This shackle of inorganic legislation has to go. From married clergy come more possibilities of vocations. Since celibate clergy are not tied down with family, they can opt to be on the move evangelizing, no? We've seen what happens when Navy personnel (mostly men) have been couped up for too long with other men (the majority of the peronnel) on a ship at sea. The brothels get very busy as soon as they hit port because of uncontrolled urges to get relief. One famous brothel in Europe even shut down for a few days because the girls were overworked and could no longer offer "quality service." Though a seminary is a "community," it does not offer the same permanent support-structure as a family or monastic community. It is temporary and passing. Fr. David Petras mentioned once that all our clergy are for married priests and 97% or so of our laity are too. We also hear that our bishops are favorable to it. Why is something so well accepted not made to work?

Requirements/Qualifications of Vocations.
We ask of our married deacon vocations to have at least five years of marriage and a full-time job to be accepted, and be at least forty years of age before ordination. Yet, we are willing to accept highschool graduates who don't have an education or work experience on their resume and have not demonstrated that they can live a celibate life. We expect celibacy to be learned while trying to concentrate on dogmas and liturgical theology. We will also ordain him before he reaches his thirtieth birthday too! Why the need for a double standard? No seminarian should be accepted unless he has earned a college degree and have gotten opportunity to live out in the world away from his parents' home. Tight-knit communities like seminaries can foster artificial social rules. They can also be carried over into our eparchies. Vocations for the clerical ministry should come from and remain in the parish community as much as possible. The honor of being a glorified altar boy only lasts so long. Then, reality hits. Bam!

Costs of Doing Ministry.
We do not have large parishes with thousands of families able to support a celibate priest. Many of our communities are small, but can survive if the pastor was married and had an occupation that was conducive to his ministry. The Orthodox do it. The Protestants do it. We don't. There is worry about costs to care for clerics' widows and children, but does that cost really match the money spent on attorney fees and lawsuits for pedophile priests? Many women do work and have their own insurance as a benefit. Can't this cut down the cost of health insurance if the presbyter opts to go under his wife's insurance policy? If a priest and his wife owns a home, can't the church pay the monthly premium (smaller than health insurance) for home owner's insurance in case of premature death? If a priest dies, the spouse gets her house paid off and the church doesn't have to worry about care. She only has to work to pay the bills. I have several family members who benefited from this and it is a wonderful insurance for a piece of mind. What exactly does the church have to worry about besides providing for some agreeable wage? How many hierarchs have set down on a spreadsheet all the costs of doing business? How many have brainstormed on how to save or eliminate costs? Large 'corporation-like' organizations are easy targets for lawsuits because they incorporate their 'employees' with W2s and the like. We don't hear about the many lawsuits that can be aimed at Protestant clergy because they are not under a centralized 'company-like' structure. Individual pastors who are independently operated or self-employed are not as likely to draw heavy lawsuits than conglomerate dioceses. Lawsuits aim for deep pockets and not peons. I once attended environmental protest meetings undercover that were trying to sue large billion-dollar corporations rather than smaller mom-and-pop shops who were more guilty of environmental pollution simply because of the money issue. This is why large corporations are slapped with heavy environmental protection even though most hazardous waste that goes into our landfills come from un-regulated residential homes.

5. Evangelical Initiative.

Episcopal Mission.
We have adopted the traditional Latin approach to evangelization. A priest is sent to a community and if it prospers the bishop visits and accepts it. In the Byzantine tradition, the bishop evangelizes a mission and plants a vineyard first. I suggest a major undertaking unlike anything we've ever seen. Our Metropolitan Archbishops should go out to the people similar to the Pope who has travelled the world over. Let's say our Metropolitans begin a mission track at some monastery and bring along clergy, seminarians, and lay people who assist him. Let's also say that the bishop visits each church along the way to some destination conducting liturgical services and ad hoc "revivals" with tents and all. Healing services can be conducted, preachings on the Scriptures, confessions, vespers and/or matins, non-Christians and non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians can attend the Liturgy of the Word and receive a blessing as they depart before the Eucharist. Talks and seminars can be held with locals on their journey, photo-ops, and media contact and advertisement. After one or two months of missionary-pastoral visitations, the track can end at another monastery or cathedral. Timely brochures and photo-journalism and articles of talks and homilies can be published in a mission-evangelical newsletter. Lay people who want to camp out and follow such a mission (read: Otpust on the move) can do so at their own cost. Hosting parishes can offer a lawn or church hall for those who wish to camp out. The local eparch can join the Metropolitan on his journey as well as eparchs of overlapping jurisdictions. Since such a mission will be slow-moving, overnight mail can be sent to the next parish for any official business done by the mobile chancery or even delegate some of the official paperwork elsewhere - like back home in the brick-and-mortar chancery "office." Funds can be raised by donations and a food-service that travels with the missionary band (pierogies anyone?). Can you imagine the impact of conducting several of theses missions throughout the country?

6. Leadership.

Meaning of Leadership.
We have to come to terms quickly whether we are meant to baby-sit a dying church as passive caretakers or lead a church to growth (as understood in building up the Body of Christ). Characteristics of leadership (read: I did not say "administration") must be defined and expected. Parish or church growth is not defined as how many transritualists one got from another Catholic 'sui juris' church. Growth here is Byzantines +1, Latins -1, sum = 0. Not a formula for real church growth. Leadership is something that we can rally around and move with in some direction. A magnet has its electrical charges all facing the same direction. A church with an ill-defined mission statement (I believe I saw one somewhere in the Metropolia's book of norms) doesn't know what it wants to do. It's like the fifty-year old still trying to discern what he or she wants to be when they grow up. We need to hear what the leaders at the top have to say. We need to witness a leader with b*lls. Though despot Fuehrers need not apply.

Comments? Complaints? Compliments?

Cantor Joe Thur
Deacon-student

I think that the thoughts expressed by Joe are extremely valid ones. As I was reading, I thought -- "with the exception that there are no 'footnotes', this would make an excellent "white paper" for submission to our Eastern Bishops Conference.

It is clear that Eastern Catholic churches in the US are going through the Kahenslyism that the Latins did in the mid 19th century, i.e., disambiguating that which is truly ecclesial from that which is ethno-cultural. They ended up with a homogenized American Catholic church. Of course, the Latin language and the "rituale Romanum" ensured lockstep conformity, even before the ethnics were 'sanitized'. We COULD follow the Latin model and create a 'uniform' Byzantine Church in America, but many of our peoples would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the sanitized sanctuary. The alternative is to remain ethnically identified and incur the possibility of harvesting vocations only from the (relatively few) purebred or the (increasingly) hybrid ethnics of the second, third and perhaps fourth generations. With this reality, it is little wonder that many men don't want to be immersed in the cauldron of ethno-cultural simmering that can represent factions of American Eastern-ity.

In addition, the point of our using the "Roman" model for training ('brick and mortar' seminaries only - to the exclusion of all other models) is a millstone around our necks. In the old countries vocations were harvested by the call of the pastors to their people for candidates. And men came forward. Now, once the candidate comes from the parish, it seems that the pastor, who supposedly knows the candidate the best, is totally divorced from all future considerations. This strikes me as dumb beyond all belief. [But: "we have a SYSTEM". Oy.]

I think that this whole topic merits much further reality-based discussion.

Blessings!

"... with the exception that there are no 'footnotes', this would make an excellent "white paper" for submission to our Eastern Bishops Conference."
Three things: First, this is only the tip of the iceberg on ideas. I've done the seminary and correspondence thing and had much experience there as well as my witness of fellow students from other dioceses of the Latin tradition. Second, I've already submitted my recommendations to the powers-that-be with them taking notes and all. Dunno what happened to that one. Third, that "white paper" can be lengthened with more ideas and evidence by simply driving over to the nearest Orthodox parish or chancery to have a few good hearty discussions with the Orthodox. From what I gather when I attempted the Antiochian program, the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox utilize their award-winning theology program, which BTW is now fully accredited thru the Balamand University.

"It is clear that Eastern Catholic churches in the US are going through the Kahenslyism that the Latins did in the mid 19th century, i.e., disambiguating that which is truly ecclesial from that which is ethno-cultural."

In some places, it has already happened. The life of the church does not center around the state of the church in central PA. Nothing against those in central PA (since my family comes from there), but many of the problems people are beginning to face in the area of liturgy, for example, is last year's water under the bridge in our neck of the woods. We can't even assume what the problems may be if we don't ask. If our venerable hierarchs want to get good ideas, then they should send a team of investigators out to all the parishes to see what is up in our own backyard rather than waiting on the front steps of our institutions wondering why we don't hear from anyone, especially priestly vocations. Better yet, maybe we should see our bishops more often? In my four years at the college seminary the first time, I met my bishop only in passing for one minute. This was more than some other seminarians. We were the only seminarian delegation whose bishop never visited us the whole time we were stationed there. How can one get excited about working in the future (read: giving up one's life) for a church where one is totally ignored and made out not to exist? At least in business one's working relations with one's supervisors and managers goes beyond the initial interview. Seminary life was lonely enough with all its trials, but being forgotten by one's own church is more lonely.

"They ended up with a homogenized American Catholic church."

I don't think we have to give up our particular traditions by simply working together sharing resources. This might not be what you are trying to say, but there is always the other alternative: study at the local Latin seminary so we can all think and be Latin scholastics. This has already been done. There are still those who wish to keep that avenue open as an alternative. I have no problem with attending a Catholic university to study, but not for Eastern Christian formation. Sometimes, we don't have the resources for everything. Yet, I would love to see the list of all our priests (and deacons) who have professional degrees, especially in the theological areas. How much of this talent is not being used because these clergy are not within reasonable driving distance to our seminary?

"We COULD follow the Latin model and create a 'uniform' Byzantine Church in America, but many of our peoples would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the sanitized sanctuary."

I don't quite understand how my suggestions have anything to do with sanitizing or conformity. The Eastern Code of Canon Law did that quite well, thank you. As you can see, any attempt to really and truly restore particular traditions will be met with obstacles.

"The alternative is to remain ethnically identified and incur the possibility of harvesting vocations only from the (relatively few) purebred or the (increasingly) hybrid ethnics of the second, third and perhaps fourth generations."

We can't rely on the ethnic factor in all situations. In some parishes, our particular form of Christianity broke out of the ethnic bubble long time ago. And most of the ethnic Rusyns I know, including my own family, are attending their local Latin Catholic parish.

"With this reality, it is little wonder that many men don't want to be immersed in the cauldron of ethno-cultural simmering that can represent factions of American Eastern-ity."

Sometimes, the Christ in Christianity is more appealing.

"In addition, the point of our using the "Roman" model for training ('brick and mortar' seminaries only - to the exclusion of all other models) is a millstone around our necks."

The Antiochians use their "village" complex for much more than a nine-month dedicated 'seminary' institution. If the building on Perrysville Ave. cannot become more than a largely vacant building for most of its use then it should be chucked. Millstones are quite expensive and cannot be available for everyone. We have to learn to carry light.

"In the old countries vocations were harvested by the call of the pastors to their people for candidates. And men came forward. Now, once the candidate comes from the parish, it seems that the pastor, who supposedly knows the candidate the best, is totally divorced from all future considerations. This strikes me as dumb beyond all belief."

Too many systematic discombobulations going on here. Does a father leave his family after his wife gives birth to go and study at a college how to be a father and then return after four years to celebrate his son's/daughter's fourth birthday? In the meantime he misses four years of living the day-to-day experience of family life. Seminary institutions, those brick-and-mortar buildings containing pseudo-temporary communities out of context with the what-is-happening-church are good for when celibacy is the norm. Living quarters are a one-room cell (using monastic terminology) and meals are eaten in common. A monastic-like prayer life is lived but then soon dumped when one is immersed in a parish setting after ordination. This is a set-up beyond all measure. Parish life can be so un-seminary-like.

"[But: "we have a SYSTEM". Oy.]"

I question defending any "system" that has become obsolete. Society has changed and if our theological training methods still reflect an 18th century style, especially of another tradition, then such training (both academic and formation) has to be reconsidered from the ground up. I always liked the imagery of pouring new wine into new wineskins and not the old ones.

"I think that this whole topic merits much further reality-based discussion."

I would love anyone to challenge my suggestions or ideas. This thread is in honor of Mr. Administrator. He called me to task on this one.

Joe

Mr. Thur,

You have some great ideas. Especially the one about satellite classes. I was just talking to someone about that the other day. The further west you go in the Parma Eparchy I think the harder it is for people to take any classes. Deaconate or even Cantor. Would it hurt for you to send this post to our Hierarchs?


Nicky's Baba

I would be willing to see that it gets into the hands of Bishop Nicholas, who is the president of Eastern Catholic Associates, the unofficial synod of Eastern Catholic bishops at the USCCB. Alternatively, I suggest that Joe submit it to Eastern Churches Journal, which, I think would readily print a spruced-up and expanded version.

I think that Joe has posted some positive ideas. I second Dr. John and Stuart�s idea of a white paper. We can create new pages on this website to share these ideas and solicit feedback but I certainly would encourage Joe submit the finished product to the bishops and other appropriate eparchical personnel. A white paper prepared without emotion that acknowledges the problems and provides concrete suggestions to remedy these problems is just what is needed. Be careful, though, those who make suggestions are expected to follow up by making them happen!

Why just them? Is this a "clerical" problem, or one that touches on the very life of the Church? Reform is not going to come from the top-down, but from the bottom-up. The People of God are the ultimate guarantors of Tradition, but the people of God are habitually cut out of the issues that affect them most directly, whether it is liturgical reform or religious education, or the selection of candidates for holy orders. The best possible thing that could happen is for everyone in the Church to read Joe's paper, and others like them, and become informed, and demand an open forum in which the voice of the People of God will be heard by those who are the Shepherds of those people. But to say, "Gee, we should let the bishops and 'apprporiate' eparchial personnel see it smacks just a tad too much of rank clericalism for my tastes.

As Napoleon's uncle, Cardinal Fesch, once told the Emperor, "We priests have been trying to destroy the Church for 1800 years". That they haven't succeeded is entirely due to the working of the Holy Spirit--and the steadfastness of the People of God.

Since I suggested that they be published on this website (which has a wider readership than our eparchial newspapers) and agreed with you that they should also be published in the Eastern Churches Journal for general discussion I�m not sure I understand this comment. I do insist that a blessing must be secured from a bishop before going beyond the �white paper� stage. This would only be proper and in line with Eastern praxis. Are you suggesting that those seeking to take Joe�s suggestions and run with them should not seek a blessing from the hierarchy? Are we to become like the Protestant Churches and ignore our hierarchy? Please clarify.

I don't know what happened with all the above editing. But it makes my comments a moot point.

May God's Will be done. He loves us. And that is the best news in the entire world.



[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: amonasticbeginner ]

Well, ditto for me.

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: anEasternCatholic ]