www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Catholic-Orthodox Counterparts?

Paul,

Although Greg notes that the Eparchy of Mukachevo is the mirror-image of the Ruthenian Catholic jurisdiction in the US, I think his use of "affiliated" in describing the relationship between it and the Kyivan Major-Archbishopric is open to misinterpretation. The Eparchy of Mukachevo participates as an observer at Synods of the Kyivan Church, I'm not sure that I would describe it as "affiliated" with same. It is a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church sui iuris of Eparchial rank, with no formal relationship to the UGCC.

The relationship (or lack of same) between Mukachevo and Pittsburgh illustrates one of the oddities imposed on our Churches by Rome's structuring and retention to itself of authority over Churches in the diaspora. Though Pittsburgh's hierarch is of higher rank than that of Mukachevo (Metropolitan versus Eparch), they each constitute a Church sui iuris, since there is no formal canonical relationship between the two and neither hierarch has been singularly designated as primary hierarch of the Ruthenian Church sui iuris.

(The same situation exists with respect to the three jurisdictions of the Italo-Greek-Albanian Catholic Church sui iuris).

Many years,

Neil

Dear Paromer,

It would appear that Neil and I, are once again, 'going to agree to disagree'.

My analysis is a realistic reflection of the current church structures and affiliations in both the 'new' and 'old worlds'.

If, you would like to speculate on future developments / evolution, please ask.

Hritzko

Dear Paul:

I am one and the same Amado G! (No relation to Kenny G!)

I just wanted to save some little space for the Adminstrator's benefit!

And I wish to become anonymous(!?) like
"incognitus," "paromer," "Irish Melkite," and "Orthodox Catholic."

No, I am not hiding from the "Tongs" nor from the Feds, I can assure you. Not yet, anyway!

AmdG

I think that the question of whether or not the Italo-Greek Rite or Italo-Albanian Church has a counterpart in Orthodoxy is, at least, a partially unanswered one.

Geographically, there are no Albanian Orthodox parishes in Italy, although in the new world, there are 17, soon to be more, God willing. The closest ones, in Albania, are only 45 miles away from their Italo-Albanian counterparts!

But in Italy, there is a growing Greek Orthodox Metropolitanate. Liturgically, the Greek Orthodox, Albanian Orthodox and Italo-Greek Catholics are doing everything the same way, but comemorating different Patriarchs. Yes, the Italo-Greeks throw in some Albanian and Italian language, depending on the village or city, but as rites, I call them identical.

The popularity of the San Nicola (Italo-Greek) parish in Lecce, which attracted numerous Greek students who were studying at the Univ. of Lecce, caused the Metropolitanate to begin to open a Greek Orthodox parish there.

To me, it looks like it is becoming a parallel structure.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

Agreed - but, I think the original issue was not whether there is a parallel, but rather the age-old question - do they have an Orthodox counterpart from which they returned to communion with Rome. In that sense, there isn't - except for those unsuspecting emigrants to whom Byzantine was Byzantine - and who weren't therefore setting out to consciously move from Constantinople to Rome.

Many years,

Neil

Welcome back Christian !

Hritzko

Dear Neil,

Research shows that even in the mid 16th century, the Popes still recognized the Italo-Greek Churches as being "under" their original Patriarchs.

And their Patriarch was also Ohrid - for the Albanians-Arberesh coming from Epiros. Constantinople did have authority over those from the Peleponessos and the Islands.

The Normans (circa 1000 AD) were really the first to seriously challenge the East's authority in S. Italy and Sicily.

So, in one example of many, when local Latin Bishops complained (in approx. 1568) to the Holy See over Pat. of Ohrid's sending of an Auxilliary Bishop to ordain Byzantine Rite clergy in Southern Italy for Byz. Rite faithful, the Holy See said (paraphrased), 'leave them alone, Ohrid is our sister Church. She is just caring for her own, which she has the authority and obligation to do.'

However, the persecution against the Byz. Rite, unfortunately picked up again in the 17th & 18th centuries, after which it is safe to say that the previously-stated attitude was heard no more. The Greek Rite was to be maintained, but as a protected minority directly under the Pope. The Pope Clement (1700) of Albanian extraction did much to solidify the position that exists today: protected but under Rome.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,

Agreed. A nice summation of the Church's history. The actions taken against the Italo-Albanian-Greeks in the 17th and 18th centuries, when the effort was to eliminate the Rite by attrition are another shameful page in the history of the West's attitude toward the East.

Many years,

Neil