www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islam: From Tradition to Terror

Has anyone else read Stephen Schwartz, "The Two Faces of Islam; The House of Saud from Tradition to Terror"?

I find it most informative and answers most of the questions I've struggle with trying to discern how much of Islam does seem to be a religion of peace while much of it seems to be a religion of terror and war. The Saudi's and their missionaries the Wahhabis have been terrorizing the traditional Muslims for decades just as they have been at the heart of the most viscious attacks on Israel and the West. They are the power behind the Taliban and Al Qaida. They are the terrorist movement in Chechnya. They are the inspiration for the Baathists and are the fomentors of the continued war in Kashmire.

You won't learn this from the naive and ideological Western press...but there you have it.

I now understand why there is such a divergence of opinion concerning just what Islam is even among those who are Muslim.

Dan Lauffer

The Saudi puppets in Israel, Hamas, has just won another victory. Habas has resigned as Palestinian president. Hamas is the main backers of the Intifada and the architects of the terror suicide bombings that have plagued Israel for the past three years. Hamas is funded by the Saudis as are the families of the suicide bombers.

Does anyone have any observations concerning this?

Dan Lauffer

What has happened to all of the people who were interested in Islam?

Dan Lauffer

I strongly believe that the Saudi royal family has been funding Osama Bin Laden as well. Saudi Arabia is the country that should've been attacked, since they most likely bankrolled 9/11.

Anthony

Anthony,

From everything I've read I believe they did. I would hope that we would stop buying oil from Saudi Arabia. In fact I wish we would more quickly develop alternative sources of fuel and rely upon our own sources of oil so that we would never be beholden to the Saudis.

Do you think the world would be a more peaceable place if the Saudis/Wahabis were somehow neutralized? That is, can peace be obtained with Muslims who are not Wahabis?

I realize the Crusades were not started by Wahabis but by a half mad Caliph from Egypt, but are the Wahabis and Saudis the central figures in modern terror among Muslims?

Dan Lauffer

http://www.stripes.com/mideast/graphics/baath.html

Baathism is a secular socialist ideology that was part of the attempt to "Westernize" (read modernize) the Arab the world beginning in the 1930s. It was turned into an authoritarian and somewhat leftist system when it came to power in places like Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

Theoretically and in actual practice, it has no connection to the ultra-religious Saudis, or Al-Qaeda. Strict Muslims oppose both its secular nature and its socialism.

The Saudis are clearly a problem as these stories from the naive, ideological Western press point out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,815025,00.html

http://msnbc.com/news/961979.asp?0sl=-42

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/terrorism/saudi/

But linking Baathism to Islamic fundamentalism is like saying Orthodox Christians support the Irish Republican Army since they both come from a Christian tradition.

--Tim Cuprisin

Tim,

But my contention is not that the Wahhabis are religious in nature at all. They use religion for their own purposes.

I will now spend some time reading the articles you have linked.

Have you read Schwartz?

Dan Lauffer

I note that much of the Western press recognizes a link between Al Qaida and the Saudi's. I also note that NPR seems to have fallen completely under the spell of the Saudis.

Yeah, fallen under their spell:

http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1270647

http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1380970

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1417723

I haven't read the Schwartz book. But its point on the Saudi connection to radical Islam and terrorism is all over the what you termed "the naive and ideological Western press," including NPR.

--Tim Cuprisin

The socialism of Baathism tended to be subsumed in Arab nationalism especially in Egypt (Nassar, Sadat) It certainly had no connection to any form of European social democracy or democratic socialism.

You're absolutely right. I never said it was democratic. Lots of socialism isn't (as many of our relatives understood for 40 years or more under the Soviet brand).

But Baathism is thoroughly secular and divorced from Islam, which is why the supposed links of Saddam's regime to al-Qaeda terrorism are such a stretch -- especially without any proof either before or after the invasion of Iraq.

However, the connections to Saudi Arabia are much clearer and have been spelled out regularly since Sept. 11, 2001.

--Tim Cuprisin

Dan,

There is NOTHING peaceful about Islam. Islam is from Satan. Yes, there are good Muslims but Islam as a religion is evil because it denies the salvation of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light nobody goes to the Father except through the Son!

Tim,

Thank you for the links to the various media outlets. It would appear that the media is catching onto things. Do you work for NPR, by the way?

I did not say that there was a direct connection between Al Qaida and the Baathists. The connection is between the Wahabis and Saudis and the Baathists.

My intention is neither to attack or defend this or that American politician. I do believe that we should push the Saudis back away from us and no longer consider them to be our allies.

Johann,

You are correct in your theology. There is no hope outside of Christ. However, we'd be much better off dealing with the Sufis than with the Wahhabis and Saudis.

Dan Lauffer

This really burns me up! All of this ecumenism with Islam that the Church is doing these days is just wrong. Our ancestors died to the swords of Muslims screaming, �There is only One God and Mohammed is his prophet.� Byzantium fell to these infidels and has been persecuted ever since. The Oriental Orthodox have lived under persecution for almost 1500 hundred years now. The Catholic Church almost fell to the infidels if it wasn�t for Our Lady of Victory saving them. Pope after Pope has condemned this great Satan of Islam and now this Pope John Paul II wants to kiss the Koran. Not to mention Catholic Churches have inter-faith services with Muslims. What do they hope to accomplish with this?

If you ask me this only helps put fuel to the fire of the heresy of relativism. I say stop ecumenism now and preach the truth of the Jesus Christ.

Remember the first Gulf War? We went there to prevent the Baathists from invading Saudi Arabia.

No, they're not connected. They're sworn enemies.

The world is a complex place. Baathism is a bigger enemy of fundamentalist Islam (including the Saudi version) than American liberal democracy is because it's an Arab ideology. It's not a foreign, Western concept.

And, no, I don't work for NPR. I find NPR to be dreadfully dull, but hardly pro-Saudi.

--Tim Cuprisin

Tim,

You just seemed a bit defensive about NPR, that's all.

This is all very interesting. When you get a chance please read Schwartz. Our conversation may connect then.

Dan Lauffer