www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Albanian History

This is kind of an oddball topic, but I'm curious if anybody has recommendations about a site or book(s) to reference. Right now I'm reading "The Balkans" by Misha Glenny which is good but broad.

Thanks

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Well, since you asked......

Mr. Jacques published a colossal tome in 1992 called "The Albanians." He is a bit biased, not factually, so much as in that his love for the people and culture is heavily woven into the work. And I like that. In other words, I would say that he is accurate, but one might reasonably question his objectivity.

He served there as a protestant missionary in the 1920s or 1930s.

If you PM me, I would be happy to offer a more extensive bibliography and recommendations for further study, unless other participants also express similar interests, in which case I would post the bibliography here.

In Christ,
Andrew, your resident ByzCath Forum ethnic Albanian Orthodox know-it-all, sometimes formally referred to in the church as a Psalti, Chanter, or "Anagnost" [being translated as "the one who does not not know anything."]

Whatever you're most comfortable with, a post or a PM. Either would be appreciated. I'm interested in a general history or histories, and also particularly the person of Skanderbeg.

Thanks, the other Pennsylvania Andrew

Ah yes!

George Kastrioti "Skanderbeg," King of the Epirotes, and other titles, bestowed by the Popes of Rome, such as "Athelete of Christ," "Defender of Christendom," etc., etc.

His statue still stands on squares in Paris and Rome five hundred years after his death in 1468. The resistance that he led for 25 years against the Turks really saved Europe from them. After his alliance had finally collapsed in 1479 the Turks quickly built a fleet and crossed the Adriatic to assault Otranto in 1480. They slew up to 20,000 people and sent shock waves throughout Europe. 700 skulls, severed from the bodies of the victims by the Turkish sword, rest in glass cases in the city's cathedral.

The US Military Academy at West Point, NY still studies his tactics: [what to do when you are few and they are many.]

Bishop Theophan Noli published a work on Kastrioti which I will include in the bibliography to be posted here.

In Christ,
Andrew, who grew up with a portrait of Skanderbeg on the wall in his family's home.

Hello

Now that we're talking about this. I'd like to ask Andrew, about the reaction of Christians in Albania toward the Italian and German occupation and the Nationalist movements such as Balli i Kombetar.

I have learnt that before the advent of the Italian intervention, it was rumoured that a Uniat Bishop would be imposed as head of the Orthodox Church as some members of the synod had compromised. (That was perhaps the reason why a Bishop was rapidly consecrated as Primate of Albania).

After all, when German troops liberated Epyros, Albania received its true borders and territories.

It's my understanding that a section of the Roman Catholic Church collaborated with the Axis but I don't know what was the attitude of the Orthodox.

Thanks a lot!

(Alketa Vejsiu's loyal fan and admirer)

Dear Mexican:

Indeed, the new borders (German-imposed from 1941-44) did truly reflect the ethnic realities on the ground! Of course, the Churches had little say in these matters.

The RC Church had set up a parallel uniate structure before their occupation. But, yes, after the Italian invasion, the Orthodox ABp Kristofer (Kisi), signed an agreement of unia under duress, but it was never proclaimed by the Church to the people as a positive move. If anything, it was hidden and he was personally ashamed of it.

Church literature from that period makes no reference to unity with Rome.

Re: Balli Kombetar, it was almost exclusively made up of illiterate Muslim peasants. (Not that I look down on the learning in Islamic lands, but in the case of Albania, the overwhelming majority of the educated were Christians.) Balli had her strength in the central Albanian uplands.

Orthodox Christians, in the South, tended to be with the Socialists/Communists. The first combat brigade was raised in my wife's town, Vithkuq, in one of the crucibles of Albanian Orthodoxy. Down the road from her village and my grandfather's village was Borova, where the resistance held even the German SS at bay for several days. (The SS subsequently massacred the whole village).

The Royalist forces of King Zog, who had fled, never made much of a dent in the German armor.

In general, the Albanians resisted, but the Kosovar Albanians collaborated, raising several battalions which saw action on the Russian front and even against the Albanian resistance at home. This makes sense in that the Kosovars saw the Germans as their only chance to get out from under the Serbs.

The relationship was an odd one. The Albanians didn't like the Germans but the Germans were convinced that the Albanians were part of "the Master Race" and thus entitled to preferential treatment. But when the Germans turned on the Italians after Italy's surrender to the Allies, the Albanians hid the Italian soldiers at the risk of this preference.

More famously, they hid about 300 Jews fleeing the Nazis, not surrendering a single one to the Gestapo, even under torture. In the Balkans, while you are in my home I'm obligated to protect you.

Balli and the Communist/Socialists each made significant gains against the Germans, liberating themselves as the Germans retreated in November 1944. However, the Communist/Socialists quickly struck at Balli and neutralized them before they knew what had hit them and took over the whole country, leading to 45 years of totalitarianism.

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Andrew Rubis, I've been reading Edwin Jacques book about the Albanians.Do you think this history is pretty accurate.I'm not sure Jacques is very knowledgable about Orthodoxy, because he writes that Metropolitan Fan Noli was "re=ordained in 1923,actually that was the day he was made Bishop, having already been ordained a priest in the US in 1908 by Metropolitan Platon of the Russian mission.Also ,do you know anything of an Albanian-Armenian link? I read somewhere that the languages were related(albeit perhaps remotely).Fr. Andrei

Hi everybody!


Rilian. A history of Scanderbeg that you can find in English is that of the albanian bishop Fan Noli.
Fan Noli was of the opinion Scanderbeg belongs to the Uniate albanians of 15 century.


Mr. Edwin Jacques, as someone before said, is a biased author (he is not even a historian). That with regard to the antiquity. What I like about his book, is the chronology of Albanian history and that is a version of what most of Albanian zealot nacionalist earnestly believe


Mexican. The one Uniate bishop you are talking about is Kristofor Kisi, the previous archbishop of the third Synod, created in 1937, of the from the patriarchate recognised autocephalous albanian orthodox church. A good book to read about this is of Roberto Morozzo della Rocca.

Kisi didnt succeed in turning the albanian orthodox church into a uniate one, I have read, because Rome was reluctant to receive into its bossom the albanian orthodox church, as a premature step for that time.


Fr. Al, Jacques is right in saying that Noli was reordained in 1923, because, prior to that, Noli was "self-ordained" in 1919 in America, after the russians, some say under the pressure of the patriarchate of Constantinople, failed to keep the promisse to ordain him a bishop as well, as they did in 1908 when they ordained him a priest.


A interesting book to read, I believe, should be that of Adrian Fortescue. He is a catholic scholar of the beginning of 20 century from England. He wrote about orthodoxy and uniates. I have his book about the orthodox church, but I couldnt find the one about the Uniates.


By the way, do you know anything about history materials of the Albanian uniates?


thnx

Dear Arbanon,What I am trying to find out is was Bishop Fan Noli proclaimed "Bishop-elect" here in the US.A priest may temporarily rule a diocese without being an actual bishop.Actually, here in the US, Constantinople has had a Ukrainian(now defunct),Albanian(now with a Bishop who was for many years was a priest administering the parishes), and also a Byelorussian administation, all headed by priests.A good friend of mine, a Greek American, was pastor of a Byelorussian parish here.He commemorated the Ecumenical Patriarch and Metropolitan Nicholas of the Carpatho-Russian diocese in services.Now he serves a Greek parish and commemorates the Greek Archbishop,Demetrios.Anyways,Metropolitan Fan Noli could have administered the Albanian parishes here as an Archimandrite or even as a priest.He certainly couldn't have performed any episcopal functions such as ordinations, which hopefully he didn't.Fr. Andrei

Dear Fr.Al

as far as I know, he was ordained simply as a priest, in order to serve the albanian orthodox community in there in albanian language. The purpose of Noli, on the other hand, was to create a movement for autocephality wich would expand out from America to Albania, where the church was still dependended from patriarchate. Therefore in 1919 he wanted to become a bishop, and, as the russians failed to ordain him, as promissed, he proclaimed himself a bishop and acted as such on behalf of albanians.


Greetings

Then Fr. Theophan Noli was indeed given the title Archimandrite by the Russian Metropolia here in the Americas, but his nomination by the Metropolia as bishop to form an Albanian diocese was received in Moscow but not voted upon. Thus he entered a grey area of being an administrator of people but not of a diocese.

I do not believe that he was given authority to wear the mitre, but he did.

His consecration of the church building and altar at St. Peter and St. Paul Church in Philadelphia during this time period was also probably also non-canonical.

The most serious concerns over Bp. Noli's canonical status are not with the period between his nomination in 1918 to be a bishop for the Albanians in the Americas and his subsequent consecration in 1923 as the Bishop of Durres, Albania. The graver issues surround his largely unknown ecclesiastical and personal activities between 1925 when he fled Albania and 1932 when he returned to the USA. And again from 1932 through 1965, while serving as a clearly non-canonical bishop (for his see was Durres not Boston), his noncanonical ordinations and consecrations in the Americas.

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Mexican you said:

"After all, when German troops liberated Epyros, Albania received its true borders and territories."

I say:

This surprises me, because I know Greeks from Albania and they say differently. Now I don't know the specifics, but I do know that they speak Greek, and are Orthodox, and I've been told that Lord Byron's so called Albanian soldiers; the one's that were fighting to free Greece from the Turks, were Greeks.

Today though the Albanian Greeks are leaving for Greece, (what else is knew), as they have done in all the surrounding countries. Area's, that I may stress, where the Greeks were in the majority.

But then again, the 'foustanella' which is the skirt that the Greek soldiers wear, is considered Albanian. The Albanian white skirt is longer though, and the Greek one is shorter. Then again, my mother told me that when she was young, all the people in the towns surrounding Athens, spoke Albanian. So where one ends, and the other begins in the Balkans is anyone's guess.

Today, there are about one million Albanian immigrants in Greece. That's about one eight or one ninth of the population. Somehow they seem to prefer Greece to Italy. How many of them are Orthodox, and how many are Muslims, I can't say. Hopefully they are Orthodox.

Zenovia

When the old kingdom was created the courts used both Greek and Albanian in Athens as the area did have a substantial Albanian population, as did many other areas in Greece. Greek was made the language and in a short time was the only language used. Like Salonika when it joined Greece had a significant numbers of Jews and others. The Balkans was never going to be easy to carve up with some many ethnic groups overlapping each other. If people had been treated better in some places when the borders were drawn up, the minorites would not see the need to leave and relocate. Where the boundaries should be between Greece and Albania will have to stay where they are for now as neither side agrees where else they might be. Grottaferrata had a house and a small exarchate in southern Albania but had a only a handful of faithful.
Here is an article on the problems of defining the Albanian Greek border.
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm

ICXC
NIKA

Zenovia and Pavel Ivanovich raise the fascinating issue of the "Arvaniti," those living in Greece since the 1300s and speaking Albanian. Their role in the liberation and establishment of the Hellenic Republic is well known. They tended to be conservative Orthodox, mostly old calendarist when that issue arose.

They dominated the entire officer cadre of the Navy and even made up the majority of the Supreme Court.

One of the Presidents of the new Hellenic Republic hit very well on the issue of ethnic identity vs. citizenship. With a new Albanian Kingdom on the block 1912-13, the League of Nations sought to define the border. They listened in the marketplaces and even at funerals to determine the linguistic identity of each village and thereby fairly draw the border. The President of the Hellenes issued a letter saying that this was a grave error. He said (paraphrased), 'In my own home we speak Albanian, but that does not automatically mean that we would want to be included in a majority Muslim state.'

So yes, it is far more complicated than the casual observer would ascertain.

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Pavel,

Thank you for the article, it answered many questions. I know from a map I have showing the movement of people after and before the world wars, that the Bulgarians were the one's that might have sufferred the most through ethnic cleansing. It seems that about a million were forced to move and settle in Bulgaria after WW I. The probability exists that they might have been Muslims. I don't know!

I recall reading once, that when the Greek soldiers took over the areas around Solonika during one of their many wars, they kept encountering Bulgarians and insisted that they were Greek and to stop speaking Bulgarian.

It seems the Greeks were predominantly city dwellers, but then again, who knows who was Greek. ...it is a dominant culture. During the Middle ages, when the crusaders needed more men, rather than having them come from France, they had them come from Southern Greece. Actually four languages were spoken there: Greek, French, Slavic and either Roumanian (Vlachs), or Albanian. I don't recall which one. Many places though, still have Slavic names.

As for Macedonia, it is a province in Northern Greece. The nation that now claims that name, was a concoction of Tito's because there were no Slavs in that area at the time of Alexander the Great.

What disturbed the Greeks the most about FYRON, (Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia), was that they were not only imposing on their identity, but were showing pictures of the Greek city of Solonika, (Thessalonika) on their travel posters. The City is coveted because of it's location as a seaport on the Aegean. so it is quite threatening to the Greeks.

I believe though that FYRON does have problems and is trying hard to establish an identity in order to avoid trouble with it's Muslim population.

Thanks again for the article.

Zenovia