www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Presbyterians changing Father, Son, & Holy Spirit

I hesitate to say this (and it is not directed toward John but just a general thought/comment) ...

But are we really any better?

The divisions between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches? The divisions between Eastern Rite and Latin Rite Catholics? The divisions between traditionalist Roman Catholics and all other Roman Catholics? And that doesn't even get into the problem of the SSPX and the sedevacantists ...

I fear at times that what CDL has said is true ... Why bother to convert from one divided church body to another?

It is always sad, of course, to see moral relativism at work. It is always heart wrenching to see sin condoned. It is disturbing to see evil redefined as good.

But as we talk about this happening in the Protestant communions are we really in any better shape? We have priests who counsel couples to use artificial birth control. I spoke to a friend who was counselled by her priest that self-abuse is not a sin. I was told by a priest that the Rubrics are "guidelines".

There are women purporting themselves to be Roman Catholic "womenpriests" and holding well publicized "ordinations".

There are prominent public figures who identify themselves as Catholic who flaut Church teaching and cause scandal to the faithful who are never chastised.

Do we really have any room to point fingers?

Perhaps we should put our own house in order before we suggest to others that they leave theirs ... because if we counsel them to leave their own where shall we tell them to go?

Perhaps I am feeling pessimistic today - but as a convert from Lutheranism to the Catholic Church ... I really don't see much difference from all outward appearances. There is no more unity here than in the 200+ world wide synods of the Lutheran denomination.

So when asked by someone, "Why should I be Catholic?" My reply always starts with the Eucharist ... but mentallly I often finish with "I have no idea."

There are liberal Catholic priests who have already taken �inclusive language� to its next logical step. They do not pray in the name of the �Father, Son and Holy Spirit.� They pray in the name of the �Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier.� The new Divine Liturgy might be the first step in this process of liberalizing the Byzantine Catholic Church.

As long as these priests are praying that way in private and not at the Divine Liturgy, it's okay with me. I don't see how those adjectives properly describe ANY of the Trinity, as those characteristics are true and proper for ALL three Persons.

you may be intersted to know that the new formula is not all that new. I heard a woman clergyperson use that formula for a benediction in a church in Chattanooga(! !) of all places, in the eighties.
Much Love,
Jonn

When we see the divisions that have been described in the Church, we must keep in mind the Parable of the wheat and the tares.

Wheat and tares look identical when they grow in the field but the tares grow no grain in the ear. We must always, therefore, remember the admonitions of the Lord that "by their fruits you will know them."

We're each called to receive the Faith and both to live it out faithfully and to pass it along in the same manner we have received it, neither adding to it or subtracting from it. Each of us will be held responsible for our own stewardship and how we use that stewardship to influence others, whether for good or for ill.

We may pass it along with a new face or in new terms, but we are called to ensure that the substance is not changed by us. As one friend of mine taped on his pulpit, "woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel (authentically)." I would add, "woe to me if I do not live and believe and teach the Faith that I have received, and further to defend it with the gifts I have been given."

Remember, too, that in every generation there have been those who wanted to change the Faith into their own image and likeness. They have come and gone; the Church remains two thousand plus years later. The Lord told us that He would be with us, His little flock, to the end of the age. As the late Pope John Pual II used to say, "be not afraid."

Maybe we need to learn to gently say to people around us "that's not the Faith we have received from the Lord." And just keep repeating that statement.

In Christ,

BOB

As I think I have mentioned before. Starting a few years ago I started to baptize conditionally all who come into Catholic Communion from the Protestant Communities. You just cannot be sure of their validity any more.
Stephanos I

Carole,

You make some excellent points. We as a Church are in need of repentance and conversion and housecleaning.

However, there is one benefit that we have been graced with: receiving the fullness of the apostolic tradition. At least the apostolic Churches still know the truth about certain matters. They still have the teachings about the Trinity -- who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not Mother, Child, Sanctifier or Me, Myself and I. We still have the teachings of the sacredness of human life and procreation, even if many reject those teachings. We still have the Mysteries and the Word and theosis. Etc. Many of the more liberal Protestant churches no longer have the truths of the Christian faith. We, unholy and unworthy as we are, still have the fullness of the apostolic tradition. That is a significant difference.

Yet, like I said, you made some excellent points, Carole. We who have the fullness of the apostolic tradition often fail to live up it or to even try to live it: to the fullness of sanctification that Christ and the Holy Spirit are calling us. We have been given the gift of theosis, and we often fail to make use of this gift (and I am one of the worst). So, as St. Paul warned us (Galatians 6: 7 - 10): "God is not mocked, and a man shall reap whatsoever he sows . . . therefore, while we have time, let us do good."

-- John

I half wondered why the Presbyterians in question didn't add "Moe, Larry, and Curly" to their list. That would make for a fun litany.

Then you could have Presbyterian groups in schism arguing about whether the "third person" should be "Shemp" or perhaps "Curly Joe"...

Hmm, now you're gettin' the idea! ;-)

Again it might not. Translations have been corrected before and will be after. Compare 1964 with the "Levkulic" 1978 book.

There has been so much hysteria over the translation, possibly eclipsing the outcry over the original official translation in '64!

The problems of our dwindling parishes can not be focussed on this recent translation, since the parishes had started to shrink almost 40 years ago!

While threats of "inclusive language" do not help matters. The underlying theology and teachings of the church will always have further reaching consequences.


Theology of the Three Stooges! The time has finally come!!

Steve

Dear John you said:

I say:

As an Orthodox Christian, I believe we also have the fullness of the faith, if it is followed faithfully by the priest and hierarchs...(we have our own 'liberals'). But because we have that fullness, does not mean that all laity within my Church contain that fullness as individuals. We are though, as a sacramental Church, empowered to give it to them.

Other denominations might lack the fullness, (and certainly the Presbyterians and Episcopalians are two of them), yet participants of their Church, might have greater fullness than those within my Church, depending of course on their individual condition.

Zenovia

We all know that the third person of the funny trinity is Curly! (Am I allowed to post that?)

Shemp is a false Stooge!


(He was actually the Original Stooge, before Moe, Larry and Curly)

Shemp is the anti-stooge. As for the USA Presbyterians, I think Calvin would have a seizure if he could see what they have become. On the other hand, maybe they were predestined to abandon truth - hmmm... As mentioned in another post, the PCA Presbyterians did form their own group to protest liberalism in the USA church. However, the PCAs can be somewhat liberal themselves on certain issues.

YES! This is so true. My husband in his 'disaplenarian self' - sorry don't know how else to describe that quality in him - always says say no. That you have to be willing whether child or adult to speak loudly and say no, you are in the wrong. If we don't speak it how will they hear. The old phrase 'you may be the only Bible some people ever hear' - I think that is the right way - anyway if we do not stand up and challange the inerencies in their minds, they may miss that one time to hear the truth of the Gospel.

People may be caugt up in the feel good moment of things, but there is a part of them because of their 'baptism' if authenitic that calls out to Christ. St. John Chrysostom in one of his homilies on Baptism states that the human soul cries out Abba longing to be connected with its Creator before Baptism. So if the earthly person cannot supply for their soul then it is up to us to speak the words of the truth of the Gospel, that the soul might hear and lead the person from self destruction.


S

and perhaps their churches should have the stops on the organ set so that it goes wooowooowooo.
(yes, Jonn has gone bye bye and is gone for the day).
Much Love,
Jonn