www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall My Son's 1st Divine Liturgy

Incognitus dear,

It's a Zen koan with a side order of lox and bagels.

And yes, this current repast has a similar taste and texture.

Pass the salt please.

Sharon

Paul,

The relevant canons from the CIC:

"CHAPTER III : THE PERSONS TO BE CONFIRMED

Can. 889 �1 Every baptised person who is not confirmed, and only such a person, is capable of receiving confirmation.

�2 Apart from the danger of death, to receive confirmation lawfully a person who has the use of reason must be suitably instructed, properly disposed and able to renew the baptismal promises.

Can. 890 The faithful are bound to receive this sacrament at the proper time. Parents and pastors of souls, especially parish priests, are to see that the faithful are properly instructed to receive the sacrament and come to it at the opportune time.

Can. 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion, unless the Episcopal Conference has decided on a different age, or there is a danger of death or, in the judgement of the minister, a grave reason suggests otherwise."

and the US norm of that canon:

"US Bishops' Complementary Norm, Canon 891 - Age for Confirmation

On November 15, 2000, the Latin Rite de iure members of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved complementary legislation for canon 891 of the Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States.

The action was granted recognitio by the Congregation for Bishops in accord with article 82 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus and issued by decree of the Congregation for Bishops signed by His Eminence Giovanni Battista Cardinal Re, Prefect, and His Excellency Most Reverend Franciscus Monterisi, Secretary, and dated May 9, 2001.

Complemenary Norm: The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in accord with the prescriptions of canon 891, hereby decrees that the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Latin Rite shall be conferred between the age of discretion and about sixteen years of age, within the limits determined by the diocesan bishop and with regard for the legitimate exceptions given in canon 891.

As President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, I hereby decree that the effective date of this decree for all the Latin Rite dioceses in the United States will be July 1, 2002.

Given at the offices of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in Washington, DC, on August 21, 2001.

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza
Bishop of Galveston-Houston
President, USCCB

Reverend Monsignor William P. Fay
General Secretary
February 28, 2002 Copyright � by United States Conference of Catholic Bishops"

However there is this interesting decision of the Congreagtion of Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments:

AGE OF CONFIRMATION:
When Local and Universal Law Conflict

Congregation for Divine Worship - Responsum ad dubium

The Congregation for Divine Worship responds to a dubium (official inquiry) concerning whether a bishop may deny confirmation to a person who is baptized, properly instructed and well-disposed, because of diocesan norms about age.

Prot. N. 2607/98/L
December 18, 1999

Your Excellency:

This Congregation for Divine Worship expresses its appreciation for your kind reply concerning the request of a child of 11 years resident in your Diocese along with her parents, for reception of the Sacrament of Confirmation in anticipation of the local policy of conferring the Sacrament no sooner than the sophomore year of high school.

In light of Your Excellency's considered response, this Dicastery considers it necessary to respond in some detail to the considerations you raise, and so the case was submitted to a renewed and attentive examination. The Congregation was anxious to communicate the results of this study as soon as possible asking you to note the authoritative nature of the conclusions contained therein.

At the same time this Dicastery has considered it important to respond to the considerations raised by Your Excellency in declining to dispense the girl from the Diocesan Policy in order that she might anticipate her reception of the Sacrament of Confirmation. This Congregation wishes, however, to preface its further comments with the observation that Your Excellency's refusal to grant this dispensation must be seen as having the juridic value of an administrative act denying an anticipated conferral of the Sacrament. Among the responsibilities entrusted to this Dicastery is the authoritative examination of appeals against such administrative actions (cf. Apostolic Constitution, Pastor Bonus, arts. 19, � 1, 63).

In reply to this Congregation's decision that appropriate steps be taken to provide for the girl's confirmation in the near future, Your Excellency had proposed essentially two arguments:

1. Though willingly admitting that the girl is well instructed and that her parents are very good Catholics, you point out that "instruction is not the sole criterion for recognizing the opportune time for confirmation ... The evaluation is a pastoral one which involves much more than just being instructed".

2. Your Excellency indicates that the Diocesan Policy establishing that conferral of the Sacrament is to be no earlier than the sophomore year of high school is within the right inherent in the law in light of the legislation complementary to can. 891 for the Conference of Bishops to which you belong.

With respect to Your Excellency's first point, it is no doubt true that there is a pastoral judgment to be made in such cases, provided that by "pastoral judgment" one is speaking of the obligation of the Sacred Pastors to determine whether those elements required by the revised Code of Canon Law are indeed present, namely, that the person be baptized, have the use of reason, be suitably instructed, and be properly disposed and able to renew the baptismal promises (cf. can. 843, S1; 889, �2). This Dicastery notes from the testimony submitted by the family, as well as that provided by Your Excellency, that it is clear this young girl has satisfied each of the canonical requisites for reception of the Sacrament.

In regard to Your Excellency's second point, while it is clear that the Diocesan Policy is within the right inherent in the law in light of the complementary legislation for the Conference of Bishops to which you belong for can. 891, it is also clear that any such complementary legislation must always be interpreted in accord with the general norm of law. As has been stated before, the Code of Canon Law legislates that Sacred Ministers may not deny the Sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them (cf. can. 843 �1). Since it has been demonstrated that the girl possesses these requisite qualities, any other considerations, even those contained in the Diocesan Policy, need to be understood in subordination to the general norms governing the reception of the Sacraments.

The Congregation considers it useful to point out that it is the role of the parents as the primary educators of their children and then of the Sacred Pastors to see that candidates for the reception of the Sacrament of Confirmation are properly instructed to receive the Sacrament and come to it at the opportune time (cf. can. 890). Consequently, when a member of the faithful wishes to receive this Sacrament, even though not satisfying one or more elements of the local legislation (e.g., being younger than the designated age for administration of the Sacrament), those elements must give way to the fundamental right of the faithful to receive the Sacraments. Indeed, the longer the conferral of the Sacrament is delayed after the age of reason, the greater will be the number of candidates who are prepared for its reception but are deprived of its grace for a considerable period of time.

In conclusion, this Congregation for Divine Worship must insist, given the concrete circumstances of the case under consideration, that the opportunity to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation be extended to the girl as soon as is conveniently possible.

In order to complete our documentation concerning this question, this Dicastery would be grateful to Your Excellency to receive notice of the agreement you will have reached with the family for the administration of the Sacrament.

With every good wish and kind regard, I remain

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Jorge A. Card. Medina Est�vez
Prefect

Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary

Published in Notitiae 35 (Nov.-Dec. 1999) - publication of the Congregation of Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments"

FYI, here are the relavant Latin Canon's on the subject

It would seem that any age past the age of reason is acceptable, as long as the recipient can recieve instruction.

This can be changed by the Epsicopal Conference, in danger of death, or in the judgement of the minister in certain circumstances.

And based on the above post, a generous application of charity towards the offering of the Sacrament.

Dear Father Deacon Lance and Scotus,

Thank you for providing the texts of Canon Law, the NCCB policy and other documents about the age for Confirmation in the Latin Church.

Best regards,

Paul

So in reading the post by my brother, Fr Deacon Lance, the "age of discretion" is somewhere between the "age of reason" and sixteen years of age. Hmmm, I know some people who are well beyond sixteen years of age and yet are neither reasonable nor discreet.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paromer:
[QB] Dan,

Thank you for the encouragement. English poet Francis Thompson is the author of "The Hound of Heaven."

Yes, I have an Augustine on my hands. My wife and I are his St. Monica (Pray for us).]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Paul,

We have an Augustine on our hands too, 38 years old, and he WAS confirmed as a teenager. We continue to pray for now he says he is agnostic.

I know, in faith, God is at work thwarting and luring him - but not always so apparent outwardly. For us, in this situation, and some other situations as well the fruit of the Spirit is patience..(with perserverance). And, of course, love, trust, and hope.

Francis Thompson, who wrote the poem above(one of my very favorites and so meaningful in my life, was a drug addict at one time then came out of it. I think I read that he slipped back into that before he died, but not sure.

Let us pray for one another.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

Mary Jo,

Thank you for sharing.

Holy Mother of God,

Intercede for our sons. Bring them home to their port, who is Christ.

Comfort to you in Christ Jesus,

Paul

Incognitus saith:
"Just to add to the general confusion: baptized Latin children HAVE been chrismated - if you attend (or read) the Latin baptismal service you will note that the priest annoints the neophyte with Holy Chrism.
I've been attempting for years to find out what this means. So far, the most amazing response I've had is the assertion that "well, this used to be the sacrament of confirmation but no longer is" (that was said to me by a perfectly serious and respectable RC sacramental theologian, who must have been either desparate or out of his gourd)."

This first annointing is the enrollment of the child into the Royal Priesthood of the believers, and to the office of the Prophet. Here is the prayer:

Anointing with Chrism
Celebrant:
N., N., God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has freed you from sin, given you a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and welcomed you into his holy people. He now anoints you with the chrism of salvation. As Christ was anointed Priest, Prophet, and King, so may you live always as members of his body, sharing everlasting life.


All: Amen.


In Christ,
Adam

Hi,

Used to.

Many dioceses in Mexico are adopting the teenage or late childhood confirmation.

Personally, I see it as a mistake, but as I have said many times, if I had it my way, it would be like the Byzantine way: full initation for infants as soon as possible.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Thank you for sharing, but I am sad to hear of the trend of later Confirmations in Mexico.

Paul