www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall kerry wrong for catholics. com

Zenovia, I believe you . Sorry about that. I found the quotes on a number of web pages, but without the last sentences. The quote bar helps to set off your thoughts from those of others. Btw, the fact that the authors has all of these direct quotes, but none to support the "lie" and "no reason" charges ought to suggest something to you.

The Republicans introduced legislation to drill in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. This is opposed by Kerry. Alaska is, however, a big state, with other sites for drilling. Nothing to be shocked about here.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-11-bush-kerry-monday_x.htm

Dear Friends,

Early voting began today in New Mexico. My wife and I voted in the presidential election and state and local offices.

The poll that counts has begun!

I am grateful to our Lord and God that I live in a country where I have the right to vote. That right was won with the blood and sacrifice of those brave men and women who went before me.

Christ is our peace.

Paul

True, the Pope wouldn't involve himself in elections. But I think there is a mindset at work among far too many that I find bothersome. If someone doesn't like what the bishops say, although they are successors of the apostles and speak with authority, then the argument is that the bishops are not infallible so they can be ignored. If the Pope speaks, the argument is that he did not speak infallibly. If the Pope speaks infallibly, the argument is that he really didn't mean it the way it sounded. At what point does all of this become a case of doing what one pleases and ignoring anything to the contrary, even if it comes from legitimate and lawful authority?

I humbly second that emotion. This morning's New York Times has a story about yesterday's referenum in Belarus describing how people were scared to vote for anything but the position advocated by Lukashenko.

Yours,

hal

Saddam Hussein is not a WMD. I hope you weren't serious, Paul.

Zenovia,

Why is the "We" in brackets in the only clause in which Senator Kerry's name is one of the undersigned? Generally, in standard English, when an entire word inside quotation marks is surrounded by brackets, it means that word didn't originally occur.

Logos Teen

For those who are perhaps looking for a more concrete (for lack of a better term) response from the Vatican indirectly involding Senator Kerry and his position on life issues, go to

CDF\'s Unofficial Response [defide.com]
or to www.defide.com [defide.com] and click on the Adobe Acrobat version of a letter from the Very Reverend Augustine DiNoia, Undersecretary for the Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith.

Logos Teen

Teen,

That's a fascinating memo.

Part I - related to the dogmatic nature of the evil and gravity of the evil of abortion - strikes me as obvious, and not really in question. Nonetheless, it is treated in great detail. Part II, ISTM, is the crux of the question. But it is treated sparsely, and as though it were an immediate corollary to Part I.

But is it? (And can this be immediacy constitute a matter of doctrine)? Would it apply not only to "civil rights" of a constitutional nature, but also to those of a statutory nature? That is, is it heresy to state that sodomy is immoral, but to resist proscribing it by the laws of the state? Or for that matter contraception? Or adultery? Does the immediacy of this corollary depend on the magnitude of the gravity (how does that work?) or solely on the inherent-nature of the evil?

ISTM that an immmediate corollary of the view espoused in Part II is that our liberal democracy is inherently heretical. I wish there were more to this memo, esp on part II. Can anyone recommend some further reading?

Djs,

As usual, you make fascinating and worthy observations. I'd be interested to hear further extrapolation as well.

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

Any one who uses chemical weapons to kill his own citizens (Kurds), then wages war on his neigbor (Iran), and invades and occupies his other neighbor (Kuwait) where soldiers under his command rape, destroy property and kill its people is worthy (sic) of being called a weapon of mass destruction (WMD).

Add to that all the suspected Iraqi disidents that Sadaam Hussein murdered.

Yes, I am serious about Sadaam being a WMD.

Paul

Regarding the memo on the De Fide website...

The De Fide press release states: Yet, Father John Cole, OP, writes that he is responding unofficially. So what does this mean?!!? Is this a formal unofficial response?

That both Fr. John Cole and the Undersecretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Very Rev. Fr. Augustine di Noia, are both Dominicans should cause one to stop and think. Dominicans have staffed that Congregation and its predecessor- the Holy Office, formally and formerly known as the Congregation for Holy Inquisition.

The response is written on Father John's personal stationery, so what should one deduce from that fact? Certainly, this is a theologically sound and well developed response by an expert theologian, but to state this is a formal Vatican response, is a bit of a stretch (no pun intended).

Teen,

for the sake of clarity and display, I've edited your link to the PDF on the DE FIDE website.

Teen at alia:

There's a lively discussion at "open book" on this
http://www.mirrorofjustice.com/mirrorofjustice/2004/10/catholics_the_p.html
reponse to the Bradley/George NRO article (in response to the NYT ... ) posted here by the adminstrator.

Here's one interesting quote:
"I wonder if she considers the legality, not just the incidence, of abortion to be an intolerable moral evil? The Church does..."

But there is no citation.

And this:
""While public authority can sometimes choose not to put a stop to something which-were it prohibited - would cause more serious harm, it can never presume to legitimize as a right of individuals-even if they are the majority of the members of society-an offence against other persons caused by the disregard of so fundamental a right as the right to life." [Evangelium Vitae 71]"
This is quite different, than the above.

More importantly, this idea of legitimization of rights by public authority is so utterly alien to the whole idea of US self-government that it's not so obvious how to apply it to US. Fundamentally, I think that this is the subtle, but crucial issue. And squabbling about it has diluted our impact in addressing what is certainly evil.

Here's one more thought that I think is nice, and that I have considered, but never posted here:

I agree with the idea that, while pro-life Presidents have put the issue on the back-burner except in elections, during the administration of a pro-choice, Catholic president the issue will be front-and-center every day. I think Kerry would like to make progress on this issue - certainly his wife does, as Bush hiumself graciously ac
knowledged. But even if I'm wrong, even if - especiallly if - he is the corrupt judge of parable, he will be hectored constantly, and progress will be made.

Yes, this is more fantasizing than fascinating.

djs,

No. The only real way that the abortion can be legally restricted in the US is by the judicial branch.

That's why I feel that Bush holds a much better chance of effecting that sort of change than Kerry.

Would it really be so wrong to try to reduce the thousands of deaths each day because of legalized abortion? Even if there was societal chaos because some states would allow it and some not...wouldn't some restrictions be better?

Why wait for some hoped-for future moral conversion of this country instead?

How long, O Lord, how long? Actually, around 15 days or so. Then we can all go back to arguing about how to spell Kiev.

Ostensibly pro-life Republicans nominated two-thirds of the justices on the court. There is much latitude given to the states by the the courts already, but few have gone to the present limits. I think your hope for a judicial remedy is in vain. And the idea is not to wait for a change but to stop waiting for Godot and start working to make that change.