www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Liturgy & Clericalism

Fr. Elias,

Are there other Priests who think like you about clericalism? Be a little careful of what you wish for.

I have a few observations on what you spoke about.

1. In many parishes in the RC in certain Archdioceses the trend is to change everything when a new guy comes in.There is nothing wrong with changes but in my personal experience it now goes to the extreme. They make it their own their personal place.The last guy did it all wrong, Vatican II says this and that.Kneelers are ripped out then the next guy says they need to be put back in,we need new Liturgy books then the next guy says we need to go back to the old Liturgy Books,the worship space needs to be redesigned then the next guy says we need to go back to the original design .We need a new organ the next guy says that organ doesn't belong in this Church and on & on.This is a form clericalism that has parishes constantly in debt. This is one form of clericalism they should flush down the crapper.

Now in the Liturgy the focus is not always on the Priest anymore .I don't know if they do this in a RC diocese where you are but it goes like this where I live: just before Communion several lay people walk up behind the altar and stand there next to Father on each side of him (mostly women)they are EM's. Father passes them Communion they hold it in their hands then he takes his Communion in his hand, Father takes his and not a second later they take theirs(some don't wait they take it as Father takes his) then they along with Father go out and give Communion to the rest of the congregation. It gives the illusion of lay people mostly women concelebrating, so in some instances it can get out of hand the other way.
Lastly ,you seem so disheartened by all this scandal I will pray for you and I will ask that all the Faithful Clergy who are now part of the Church Triumphant to pray for you also.


Nicky's Baba

Clericalism is a natural when priests turn their backs on Christ and face the congregation. Priests are there to help us give our offering of worship to Christ. By facing us instead of facing Christ they are made the object of devotion.

Another thought: The East has often said that all that needed defining in the Church was done at the completion of the seventh ecumenical council. The East stopped defining. The West went ahead and defined. These further defininitions added most of the objectionable matter to the Church. VCII for all of it's openness to the East so corrupted the conciliar process that it is impossible to discern what exactly was defined at that council. In fact what seems to have happened is that chaos became defined as the dogmatic approach of the Church.

Will there ever be a meeting of the minds between East and West before all of the decisions of the councils after the seventh are set aside?

Dan Lauffer

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

Dan, if that is how you truly feel, then why even be Catholic? Sounds as if you have already abandoned Catholicism for Orthodoxy. Geez, you converts are too much sometimes. Moe

Dear Baba,

Thank you for your post, and for beginning this thread. I know it is prompted from some of my own careless remarks. Now perhaps, I should withdraw my comments?

Because, you strike a nerve. I must admit, that I am guilty (in spite of my best intentions), of some of the things you mentioned. I did re-order the Church I was sent to serve, and brought in pew books. So I am an offender.

Perhaps it is not just quite so simple. Because, I could have left things as they were. However, I felt that I was following the direction I got from the authority of our Church who asked us to re-order our altar and build iconostases in Churches that didn't have them.

I know some were upset, and felt the change was not needed. I consoled myself, and sincerely felt that I was merely obedient, following the directives of our Archdiocese.

Clericalism is the idea that priesthood bestows status, power, and sets one apart. Ministry is the concept of service, (of which, Christian leadership is a most elusive charism), and it includes responsibility, fatherhood, and places one in the midst of the people.

How does one embrace the 2nd, and avoid the 1st? That is a 10,000 question, and I am not sure I always get it right.

I think the key to service, is one's own prayer and disposition of life before God. If one is in the priesthood, only from the feeling that one has been called and sent, and is a poor servant in the direction of God who somehow is providing for his people through the feeble talents of an unworthy servant, then there is hope. But it is a great gift, and a personal integrity, to communicate well what is in one's heart. One can be sincerely motivated, but not always communicate it effectively.

Does this bring me back to Liturgical "skills" and effective communication in worship? Perhaps.

My point, originally was more simple, than some of the questions here. It would be interesting to tape the Roman Liturgy, and count the words. What percentage would be uttered by the priest, by the deacon, by the reader, by the cantor, and by the people (all taking their assigned prayers and responses).

Then tape a Byzantine Liturgy, (with the ministry of a deacon, reader, cantor and people all taking their prayers and hymns as they should) and do the same. I would like to see the chart of percentage.

I am so impressed with the Byzantine Liturgy served with a deacon. It is clear who is in charge, who leads the prayers, who gives direction, sets the pace, and orders the Liturgy, and it is not the priest.

I am only reflecting on what that means. It is obviously the way the Liturgy should be celebrated, and there is a message there.

Elias

Dear Moe,

Please don't be too hard on Dan. Our Liturgy celebrates the Seven Ecumenical Councils. They are obviously normative. When Cardinal Ratzinger said that the model of the united Church is the model for re-union, clearly he was somehow embracing this idea too. I don't think it is "Orthodox" to celebrate the Fathers and Saints of the Seven Councils, and see them as the defining moments of our Church. It is what we pray on the feast.

The later councils do say something different to Byzantines and to Latins. It is only to be expected. Every council addressed a crisis, a heresy, a schism. The early councils addressed heresies in the East, and were defining moments for us. The later Councils in Italy, addressed other heresies and problems (protestants, the reformation etc.), which were not defining for the East in the same way. It was not our crisis, but a crisis in the Latin Church. Their answer to the reformation, and later on, the enlightenment, modernism, etc. etc., is not a formative element in our Church, Liturgy, theology, or spirit.

As an Eastern Christian, the later Councils always sound like answers to questions that didn't need to be asked, or aren't really pertinent to faith and worship.

But of course the Western experience and point of view would be quite different, because their history is different.

Elias

Dear Dan,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[QB]Clericalism is a natural when priests turn their backs on Christ and face the congregation. Priests are there to help us give our offering of worship to Christ. By facing us instead of facing Christ they are made the object of devotion.

You put this much more strongly than I would. I think it is fair to say that the priest is the object of our attention anyway.

As the king-prophet said: "Our eyes should be on the Lord our God, until He show us mercy".

Dear Dan,

I think that you clearly highlighted one of one of the roles of the priest at the Eucaristic Liturgy when you say, "Priests are there to help us give our offering of worship to Christ."

Still, I have three questions to ask, if I may. They are about other statements in your posting. I will explain why I am asking each one.

First, what do you mean when you say "the priests turn their backs on Christ and face the congregation?"

Here's why I'm asking:

The Latin Liturgy recognizes Christ who is present in the Liturgy in many ways. The very altar placed in the place of honor is a symbol of Christ. It is placed in the midst of our assembly since Christ is the center of our worship.

His is the priesthood made present in the priest. His is the Body made present in the people. His is the sacrifice re-presented during the Canon. He is the One Whom we offer to the Father.

He is the One Whom we recognize in the shaking of hands and wishing of peace to those who are His in Baptism. He is the One Who is the Eucharist that we receive. We are His Body commissioned to go and witness Him in the world by our lives and our service.

In short, We are His People, His Body, worshipping the Trinity commissioned by the Spirit to make Him present to the world.

This is what happens at the Liturgy according to Roman Catholic Teaching.

Given all of that, how is it possible for the priest to turn his back on Christ when he faces the congregation which is His body made present in this place?


Second, what do you mean when you say, "By facing us instead of facing Christ they are made the object of devotion."

Here's why I am asking:

Your statement can lead to the conclusion that Roman Catholics, in general, cannot distinguish between Roger the man and the Christ who uses the man Roger, the priest, to make Himself present in their midst.

Yet, Roman Catholics seem able to make the distinction judging from reports in the media. In interviews during the current scandal in the Church, Catholics report that they are angry with the men, who are priests, who have done evil and brought about scandal by their behavior. These same Catholics say that their faith is not moved and that they will continue to attend Mass. Surveys in the same media suggest the same findings from samples of the Catholic population.

Does this not suggest that they can distinguish Christ in his priest facing them in the Sacrifice of the Mass from the man who is his priest and is a sinner like us? Is there objective data to support your statement that the priest, rather than Christ, is the object of devotion during our Liturgy; or is it simply an unsubstantiated opinion?



Finally, given the above, what evidence is there for your assertion that, "Clericalism is a natural when priests turn their backs on Christ and face the congregation?"

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORT TO HIM FOREVER!

Fr. Elias wrote: "...Because, you strike a nerve. I must admit, that I am guilty (in spite of my best intentions), of some of the things you mentioned. I did re-order the Church I was sent to serve, and brought in pew books. So I am an offender..."

Well, Fr. Elias, guilty as charged and your sentence is to continue your EXCELLENT WORK!

You have truely made St.George a GORGEOUS place to worship!

I had the pleasure of attending an ikon workshop at Fr.Elias' parish. It is an amazing and exquisite place with it's iconostas. The workmanship is magnificent. Here is the ikonographer's website: www.ikonograph.com [ikonograph.com]

His name is Valentine Streltsov and he's from Canada. I can't wait to see the Orans completed in the santuary!

the least servant of the servants of God
mark

Moe,

"Dan, if that is how you truly feel, then why even be Catholic? Sounds as if you have already abandoned Catholicism for Orthodoxy. Geez, you converts are too much sometimes. Moe"

Father Elias has already answered this. I'm in full agreement with what he said.

Curly

Father,

Given what I've just read about your Church you doubtless know Father Tom Loya, iconographer extraordaire, and my parish priest.

Dan Lauffer

Fr. Elias,

I am aware of what you are doing at your Church.You are reviving a parish in a not so vibrant area. You are also putting in place ideas & concepts that will benefit your parish long after you are gone.I know some folks do not look past their time on this earth where their Parish is concerned ,but they should. Father we are in a store front but we have our Icon Screen and we do Vespers before our Liturgy!I was talking about changing publishers of pew books. For example one year before a Pastor leaves he spends several hundred dollars on new Liturgy Books a year later the new Pastor buys new books because he doesn't like the old publisher. In some instances changes are again made before the debt from the first set of changes are paid off. I don't think you are doing anything like that. The examples I was refering to are from the RC . I thought you were coming from that perspective also. In the BC I find most Pastors are trying to restore traditions - you know putting back Icon Screens. Re-instituting Vespers, Akathists, Molebens. I have stated this before on the board. I can't verbalize it to explain but there is such a balance in Our Liturgy some of the things you spoke about I can't see them happening in our Church. I am responsible for some guilt too. Our Church is against cloning but I wish we could clone a few Priests like yourself.


Nicky's Baba

Dear Medved and Baba,

Thanks for the kind words. I think the Church is beautiful, and I find it to be a very prayerful place. I look forward to every service and opportunity to see it.

Dear Dan,

I have met Father at Uniontown, and I have seen your website and the icons of your new Church. I visited our monastery in Darien (near Joliet) last week, and wished I had been able to see your new Church. Someday, I hope I will.

Elias