www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall I want to be an illegal alien.

Alex,

Your argument is too simplistic.

Yes, corporations looking for cheap labor are part of the problem.

But even more so are those countries that cannot create conditions for their people so they don�t have to leave their home country in order to have a decent life.

The law of supply and demand works both ways. Companies wanting cheap labor will use cheap labor as long as it is available to them. Cheap labor will be available to them as long as other countries cannot provide economic opportunity to their peoples and are content to export the poorest of their poor.

I don�t blame people who desire to come here for a better life. I do blame them for not doing so legally.

We need to treat the root cause, not just the symptom.

Admin / John

If there was no intent on anyone's part to engage in bigotry, I apologize. It just seemed to me that the conversation was going in that direction. I would also add that it is my opinion--and I realize that most here will disagree with me and probably strongly so--that we have no moral authority whatsoever to condemn those who enter illegally given the shameful history of the way in which those who were already living in the Americas were treated by Europeans (from whom I'm descended) as they colonized the Americas. Our ancestors came and basically stole two entire continents from the people who were already here-and now we would condemn those who come here simply to try to afford themselves and their children a decent life! It's sickening to me.

I think there are quite a few things here to consider. I recall when going to Mexico about 25 years ago, that our tour guide told us that the University in Mexico City was originally intended to hold about eight thousand students. It had at that time about twenty to thirty thousand. Today who knows how many are enrolled. The problem was and is the population growth.

As for the Mexicans and others from Central America, we in the North East need them desparately. Without them we wouldn't have any gardeners, workers in stores such as Home Depot, painters, cleaning women and just plain laborers. Actually, I recently read that the reason for the Great Depression of the 1930's might have been caused by the immigration laws that banned all immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe.

Just imagine what would happen if we didn't have these immigrants? Commerce in many fields would stop. The workers simply just wouldn't exist.

As for the excessive amount of people crossing the border, there is another solution as the administrator said. Give them jobs in Mexico. I recall years ago, when Puerto Rico was the most populated area in the world. New York City was inundated with people from that island. Of course being Americans they were able to go back and forth, which they did. The planes leaving for Puerto Rico on Friday were packed with people.

Well the problem was solved quite easily. The American companies began going to Puerto Rico, and the Puerto Ricans stopped coming. Who in the world would want New York City when they could enjoy the beautiful climate of a Carribean island.

Zenovia

Dear Athanasius the Lesser you said:

I say:

Well, let's look at it a different way. If the Northern Europeans didn't come here to develop this land, who would be carrying the world today? Let's give credit where credit is due. :rolleyes:

But the funny thing is that we might have taken the land from the Indians, but the Indians are now taking it back. I think that's what the Hispanics in Southern California are saying, and it's driving the people there crazy.

Zenovia

There is no connection. Earlier mistreatment of Indians (and the entire native peoples here before us) does not mean that we need to surrender our national security and sovereignty as a penance. We are not responsible for the home condition of the peoples heading north across the border illegally, although we are obligated to cajole those countries to reform so that their people can live better. We did not deport a people to Mexico and the other countries to the south who are now merely returning to their homes that have been waiting for them.

Using such logic, Germany would be obligated to take in every Jew in the world, regardless of whether the individual Jew suffered or had family who suffered during the Holocaust. In reality Germany is responsible to those it harmed and their immediate families. Countries need to apologize for the wrongs they have done and make reparations. Reparations are to those harmed, not to those everywhere in the world who are suffering under horrible governments. Countries that cannot create conditions in which their own people can live decently have horrible governments (note the connection between lack of liberty and horrible living conditions).

This is a false statement.

No one is condemning those who wish to come here simply to try to afford themselves and their children a decent life.

What is condemned are those who break the law in order to come here. There is a huge difference.

Why should someone in Africa waiting years to immigrate to America legally suffer because someone else has come here illegally?

Law and order are necessary elements of Christian charity at the level of nations.

Lack of respect for law and order is uncharitable.

The fact that the majority of those who come here illegally are seeking that what you state above doesn't make this statement contradictory?? You are in fact condemning them as this great majority of illegal aliens DO come to this country in truth to try to afford themselves and their children a decent life. And don't mention legal immigration. Only those with special skills can get that kind of approval.I know, I had who was approved for a Green card and finally, legal immigration because he was a highly skilled individual not a factory worker and not an agricultural worker who put food into our high priced grocery stores.

In fact this is quite debatable as Hitler tried to destroy the Jews as an entire people, not just German Jews, not just Polish jews. One could argue that Germany has a moral if not financial obligation to helpe stamp out anti-Semitism in the world and indeed similar pathological hatred because of it's recent history.

That is certainly true in some situations. I see Ray's "satire" as more a sop to those with similarly conservative ideologies to point out "o see , those illegal aliens get all the breaks while we red-blooded Americans get trampled on" It is not really bigotry but it has its historical roots in the groups that saw threats in the Irish, the Italians, the Poles coming to this country. It is not racism but a fear of the "others" who might take something from "me"

Dear Administrator:

What sort of penance should we have to do? The way I see it, there has never been anything close to real restitution having been made for the crimes committed by Europeans against the indigenous peoples of the Americas, as well as all of the Africans who were enslaved. Also, there most certainly is a very hateful, condemning attitude towards immigrants (both legal and illegal) that is becoming pervasive in our culture, and I fear is too often disseminated on this forum. I honestly don't see how you can deny that. Furthermore, I think it is overly simplistic to suggest that we share no responsibility for the conditions of people who live in poor nations. We benefit all the time at the expense of poor people in other countries. Whenever we purchase relatively inexpensive products made in poor countries (and I personally am implicated in this just as much as the next person), we benefit at the expense of the laborers who make those products at a pittance of a wage we wouldn't even consider accepting for our hard work. That certainly does not mean that all of the blame for the conditions under which people in poor countries live falls to the wealthy nations. But we are certainly implicated and share in the guilt.

Sincerely,
Ryan

I don�t know and am very open to ideas. We are obviously not going to chase everyone out and give the land back to the Indians (we can only speak about the area that is now the United States). A just solution should not continue to give them just enough welfare to enslave them (as we have done for previous generations). A way that provides them resources to create a good life for themselves while ending continued dependency on government seems best. Perhaps it would include giving them prime real estate from the national holdings. Again, ideas welcome.

I do most certainly deny that.

You have not offered an explanation of exactly what you consider to be hateful and condemning. What you have written seems to indicate that any control of immigration is hateful and condemning. I�ve recommended doubling and tripling immigration after the borders are under control. Others have made similar comments. I fail to see anything hateful or condemning about such proposals. You don�t seem to understand that nations have a right to keep out criminals and control immigration and that this idea is perfectly Christian.

Here you go with another false accusation.

I said that we are not responsible for the condition they are in. Their governments are responsible for that. I also said that we are obligated to be part of the solution. It�s pretty amazing that you place all the responsibility for their economic failures upon the United States and none on their own governments.

This understanding is based upon false economic assumptions and what can realistically be accomplished. The laborer in a poor South American or Asian country is indeed exploited but yet he is still better off with what we consider a pittance than if we did not buy their product at all. Our purchasing of cheap goods produced in Japan after WWII helped finance that country�s transition from a country of unskilled labor to a well educated, relatively wealthy society. The same thing is happening now in Korea and China (in a single generation Korea has gone from being about only to produce junk goods to producing automobiles that rival the best in the world for quality). What prevents this from happening in many Central and South American nations is the corrupt governments they have. Market economies are far from perfect but they do work in the long run. We know that socialism is bunk and only leads to the creation of very poor nations. The way to help underdeveloped nations is to push for market economies while at the same time pushing for just treatment of the worker. Just treatment of the individual does not and cannot equate to socialism.

You have a very strange definition of �condemning�.

There is nothing condemnatory about asking people to follow the rules in order to come to the United States.

There is nothing condemnatory about stating that we cannot allow the whole world to move here.

There is nothing condemnatory about stating that we need to limit the number of poor from south of the border we take in so that we can be also take in the same number of poor from Africa, India, Asia and elsewhere.

There is nothing condemnatory about stating we must cajole poor nations to enact reforms to help their own people live decent lives.

One could easily make an argument that fits very nicely with Christian ethics that best thing we could do for the poor of Central and South America is to close the border completely so that those countries with bad governments would loose the option to export their poor and be forced to enact reforms. [Our continued acceptance of the poorest of the poor without demand for reform by the countries that generate them only exacerbates the problem.]

Remember the adage �Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day but teach a man to fish and you feed him for life�? Apply it to nations with a �tough love� spin. If you keep feeding the poor (or, in our case, accepting the poorest of the poor) you do not address the cause of why the poor are poor. If you feed him PLUS address the reasons he is poor in the first place you make it possible for people to feed themselves for life.

I agree. A moral obligation to do what is right remains forever. Financial reparation has its limits. The people of today�s Germany and those yet to be born are not forever responsible for the sins of their parents. Helping to stamp out anti-Semitism world wide is an ongoing task. I argue that Germany is not obligated to open its border to every Jew (or any group they oppressed in the past).

I disagree. I see the satire as pointing to the very real need not to give preferential treatment to those who have broken the law. If we are to grant some sort of legal status to illegals it must come with a penalty. It must place them behind those who followed the rules and must not give them benefits denied to citizens and legal residents.

Dear Administrator:
I'm not advocating socialism (although I would add that capitalism-at least as it is actually practiced-has been and is the root of a great deal of sin as well) and I'm not suggesting that the governments of poor countries are free of responsibility for the miserable conditions in which their people live. I'm merely stating that I believe that the wealthy nations bear some responsibility as well because we profit from the exploitation of the poor in many nations, including Mexico. I don't think that amounts to a false accusation. I would point to the anti-immigrant rhetoric of many politicians (although not President Bush-immigration is one of the few issues where I believe President Bush is actually trying to be charitable), including those made by certain politicians in Texas where I live as evidence of strong hostility towards immigrants. I would also point to the rhetoric of Congressman Tancredo from Colorado. Furthermore, I've seen bumper stickers and billboards that say, "Keep our nation safe. Stop the alien invasion." I do not retreat one iota from my assertions about that. Unfortunately we have a long and shameful history of fear and hatred towards immigrants that stands alongside a nobler history of welcoming immigrants. I fear right now, those who would engage in hatred and fear-mongering are becoming very vocal in certain places; I will not sit silently and allow my silence to be understood as complicity. You keep talking about our right to keep criminals out-I think that sort of rhetoric is stereotyping and is just the sort of rhetoric I find to be so troubling.
Sincerely,
Ryan

Folks,

Labor in other countries may consider to us "cheap labors" whereas in other countries it's not so.

Last week, I watched a documentary on cheap labor in China and how so many countries in the world have companies in China for cheap labor. They have shown that it is certainly not "cheap labor" per se IN China. People make good money there, but for us it's cheap. WHY? Because their money values are far lower than ours. For example: $1.00 American Dollars might equal to "$50 bucks" to them.

So, the wording "cheap labor" is not accurate. It's not cheap labor in other countries, but "cheap to us" meaning it's "affordable" to us.

I want to comment about illegal immigration.

If I was to go to Mexico illegally, there is 100% absolute chance that I would be arrested for that, pay huge fines perhaps PLUS jail time and immediate deportation. In other countries, there are absolutely NO mercy for illegal immigration.

And yet some of you, including those who were "illegal immigrants" on the forum have to rub it into our (Americans) noses by saying how cruel we are if we want to tighten up our borders and deport them if we have to.

People making comments against border control on American soil has got to be the stupidest people I've known around here. Of course! It is OUR American soil, we have fundamental RIGHT and duty to protect our country by securing borders. Certainly OTHER countries including Mexico are DOING IT!

So, I don't buy this FALSE "Christian charity" towards Illegals.

It is very unChristian for us to allow Americans be robbed by the illegals through their fleecing and freeloading of this country...free education (including college), money (Social Security Checks), jobs (that rightfully should to go Americans FIRST), on and on and on and on under FALSE pretenses. That is STEALING!

WHY do Christians want to advocate STEALING in an appearance of "Christian Charity"? That is so far beyond me!!!

WHY are the illegals "sneaking" around here? Why do they act like they're guilty of something? The answer: BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY ARE GUILTY!

Thank you!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN.

Ryan,

The false accusation you are making is when you state that I am suggesting that we are not responsible to be part of the solution. We did not create the economic conditions in these countries. We can and should act to help change them.

Purchasing goods produced cheaply might be temporarily exploitive but can, in fact, be good for those nations. In the 1950s and 1960s there were complaints about how we were exploiting Japan by buying cheap goods produced in sweat shops. Yes, the average worker was poorly treated but that poor treatment was better then if we chose not to purchase their cheap goods at all. And cheap goods were all they were able to produce at that time. Look what happened. In a short time Japan went from a poor country where the workers were mistreated to a wealthy one with a highly educated workforce. Korea is currently in the middle of such a transition. Obviously we need to do what we can to improve working conditions. But we are not miracle workers and refusing to purchase anything from countries with bad working conditions only makes it worse for people in these countries. For most, an equivalent of $1/hour with a 14 hour day is better than no work and no food on the table. The way to enact change is not to blame the American consumer but to create conditions in these countries that prompt change.

Please define �anti-immigrant rhetoric of many politicians�. There is absolutely nothing unjust about calling for limits to immigration and strict enforcement of those limits. I watch the news closely and I see very little anti-immigrant rhetoric and lots of illegal immigrant rhetoric. The latter does not equate to the former.

�Keep our nation safe. Stop the alien invasion� can be either hostile or not hostile. It is very legitimate to argue that the federal government has failed in its constitutional responsibility to secure the borders and keep the nation safe (~10% of those crossing into the United States illegally are violent criminals in their own countries). It is also very legitimate to argue that we are being invaded by aliens crossing the border illegally (although such polemics does not help resole the issue). I�ve been to the Arizona / Sonora border and have seen people simply walking across the border at dusk. I�ve seen the conditions of the land they cross and read the stories of locals who have been terrorized or killed.

You also need to define what you mean by �those who would engage in hatred and fear-mongering are becoming very vocal in certain places�. Calls for a secure border are not hateful or fear-mongering. Calls for limits on immigration (be they double, triple or quadruple) are not hateful or fear-mongering.

It is certainly not stereo-typing to state that we have a right to keep criminals from crossing illegally (or legally). Again, ~10% of those crossing illegally are violent criminals (our jails are full of those who came here only to commit more violent crimes). The government of Mexico is known to release it�s convicted felons near the border with an implicit understanding that they will enter the United States.

There is absolutely nothing unchristian about 1) securing the borders, 2) setting limits on immigration and 3) making sure that those we do let in do not have criminal records in their home countries. The idea that we cannot correctly and accurately describe the issues without being called hateful and fear-mongering is very troubling indeed. That, in my opinion, is a very large part of the problem.

John

Deaf Byzantine:
I suggest that you read what Jesus had to say about the one who would call his brother stupid or a fool. You will find that he has no tolerance for that. I am many things, but I'm a far cry from being stupid. The hateful tone of your post actually detracts from your argument and vindicates my claims about the hatefulness that exists in this country towards immigrants.