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Dear Brendan,

Why can't it be both?

I learn so much from the Orthodox Posters here. I learn from the Eastern and Oriental Catholics here. I understand that the teachings of the Magisterium might not be appropos to Orthodox posters.

But does the presence of Orthodox posters mean that Eastern and Western and Orental Catholics may not refer to or discuss the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Communion? For us they carry the weight of teaching authority and cannot be lightly dismissed. But you know this already from your life as a memeber of the Catholic Communion

I see Orthodox authorities cited here often and certainly am not upset by that. As far as I am aware, they are treated with respect. Why would this question arise?

It was never my intent to suggest that only statements congruent with the Magisterium be posted here. We'd have less interesting discussions with persons from outside of the Catholic Communion if that were the case.

My concern has always been that we treat eachother with respect and not belittle other's theology or practices or liturgies. That has not always occurred here. It is still my concern.

It has been my impression that this is a place for Latins to come to also. Here they can learn of the East. I though it was legitimate for us to share insights onto topics, too. Was I mistaken in that?

Steve
JOY!

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

My concern has always been that we treat each other with respect and not belittle other's theology or practices or liturgies. That has not always occurred here. It is still my concern.

Still trying to shut down all criticism of the Novus Ordo, in your patented sugarcoated domineering way. Keep your "concern'.

http://oldworldrus.com

Serge,

Perhaps it would be wise for Dr. John, Kurt and I to come together in a chapel.

I'd invite you and your friends and anyone else who'd like to come to do so. We can all pray for peace among us here. I am already!

Steve
JOY

Bless me a sinner, Reader Sergius,

May I make a suggestion?

Instead of, "Still trying to shut down criticism of the Novus Ordo with your . . .", how about something like:

"Look here you little Latin pipsqueak, don't try to dictate your Amchurch-inspired a-prioris and otherwise try to impose them in your usual domineering way on me! If you don't agree with me, you can lump it, stick it in your pipe and smoke it, or walk to Halifax and back. Got it, Roman boy?"

I don't know if this is an improvement on what you said, Father in Christ, but it's my contribution to what seems like an ongoing debate.

What do you think, Steve?

Did you want to try your hand at either myself or Sergius?

Try me first . . .

Alex

Nothing new there!

Words are different, meaning's the same.

Thank God for humor!

Steve
JOY!

Dear Steve,

It is so great that you never take offense to anything I say, you Latin whiner you .

I think if we can laugh about things like this, the world would be a better place, don't you?

And I'm happy to see that you are not as long-winded as per usual .

You witness to the fact that there's hope for the rest of us!!

It's too bad I can't give you a big hug right now, you No Fuss Ordonite!

I'll go away now, please feel free to bash me over the head at leisure . . .

Alex

Glad that you could penetrate the fog, Alex!

Steve
JOY

Kurt's chuckling post a while back suggests he and this thread are feeding off animosity. Technically, BTW, I have learnt "trolls' in 'Netspeak are those who insincerely post "flames' in order to enjoy exactly such a reaction. Push buttons and then watch "live theater'. I believe the liberal trio here mean what they type, but the enjoyment got by some of the same from the reaction resembles troll behavior.

As someone not good at sports, sure, this thread is my version of one-on-one basketball or even boxing. I'd expect a '60s Jesuit-trained seminary graduate (graduate?) like the doctor to play great offense and defense and jab and guard equally well with both gloves. Rope-a-dope.

I would never speak for the Orthodox and they should feel no obligation to respond to this

Translation: shut up, Serge.

Moving right along...

should affirm the ecclesial character of Anglican communties.

Catholicism does affirm that groups of Protestants it considers baptized, including Anglicans, are churchlike but are not capital-C Churches like the apostolic family represented on the forum (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental). Orthodoxy dogmatically teaches that Orthodoxy is the Church; the rest is a big question mark — literally, God only knows if He has given any grace to non-Orthodox or not. Both stances allow the possibility of God giving grace wherever He wants. Which I believe. I also believe it is entirely possible that God can visit the altar of people who objectively do not have episcopacy/priesthood (are not a Church) but believe they do and mean to do what the Church does when offering the Holy Sacrifice.

We have already done so in small steps. At times, Anglicans HAVE been received corporately into the Catholic Church (Anglican use parishes and the Society of the Atonement).

Also there is the example, around the same time as the Society of the Atonement (which became Catholic in reaction against false pan-Protestant ecumenism as adopted by the Episcopal Church), of Caldey Abbey (Benedictine) in England. But in all these instances, including Caldey, the communities were received by individual professions of faith and the clergy were not received as clergy but rather were ordained as Catholic priests. The Orthodox would do exactly the same thing. Once the conversions took place, the communities continued as communities. Just like some of the Anglican Use Roman Catholic churches today.

The Anglican Use is not a rite but a variant ( hence the word "Use' ) of the Roman.

We Catholics

Chest-thumping. "Unlike you, whom WE suffer on OUR forum.'

Parishes are not simply 'chapels of ease' of the Cathedral. They have an independent integrity.

It is true the Church in its fullness is wherever the Eucharist is celebrated. But if there is no bishop, there is no legitimate exercise of priesthood, therefore no Eucharist. (Protestant communion objectively is not the Eucharist.)

Cannot we affirm that in that same sense, Anglican parishes are churches?

No, you can't, in the same sense, because objectively they haven't got bishops and therefore, again objectively, do not have the Eucharist.

Nowhere have I have used "Latin' as a putdown adjective. Regarding latinization, I do criticize that, just like I evenhandedly criticize the byzantinization and reverse-Uniate aspect of the Western Rite Orthodox phenomenon.

So Alex and Steve, stop trying to stuff words in my mouth.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Bless me a sinner, Reader Sergius!

I honestly didn't think I was, and if I gave that impression, I apologise profoundly.

I WAS making fun of the invective that sometimes goes around unnoticed by any except the intended victims, victims including Reader Sergius as well.

We can disagree and we should simply say so when we do, without getting personal, and that goes for all of us, me included.

To paraphrase the Gospel, "Anything else is from the evil one."

Alex

Serge,

I was unaware that I put words into any mouth but my own. If you perceive that I did this, it was not intended and I'm sorry that I wrote words that could be so construed.

Now, how about unconstruing some words you wrote about Kurt and me and Dr. John and a certain room and the health laws.

In all charity, it would be pleasant to hear such words from you for once.

I am glad to hear that you think that I believe what I say and don't say it to irritate you. I do believe it and I don't say it to irritate you.

I just have a right like you to present my perspective with out ridicule or abuse or personal attack by you (as per your private correspondence to me and public postings about strange positions) or your friends. At least, I think I do.

Let's stick to the issues and have a couteous dialogue. I'd like to; I mean it when I say that I learn from you. But, when there is need for another perspective, of course I will offer it in charity. I'm sorry if disagreement or another perspective upset you. That is never my intent.

Steve
JOY!

The forum's saccharine 'Net nanny opined thus:

Now, how about unconstruing some words you wrote about Kurt and me and Dr. John and a certain room and the health laws.

Metaphor, Steve, metaphor. And a pretty funny one at that.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Reader Sergius,

Now I am not putting words in your mouth.

Judging by what I have just read from you, it is in and of itself a health hazard.

Sorry.

Alex

Tame stuff, Alex. Check out Usenet sometime to get shocked.

http://oldworldrus.com

Bless me a sinner, Reader Sergius!

Then you've been keeping bad company on the internet!

You are good on your feet and under fire.

Quite deadly, in fact . . .

You'll make an excellent Priest and pastor of a large urban parish one day!

Alex

Serge,

Thank you for your sweet words about me!

This is the Byzantine Forum isn't it? It's not just anyplace on the net! Somethings fit and some don't; it seems to me.

Steve
JOY!