www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Celtic Physical Heritage and Catholic Spirituality

The blessings of Christ Our God to all,

I'm so happy to find a site that has Celtic heritage arranged in a Catholic setting. As a first generation American of Irish descent and an Eastern Catholic within the Ruthenian Church I think I may have found a place to make friendships. So Let me get down to the intent of my post.
I have been involved recently in Irish Collar and Elbow Wrestling,an Indigenious Irish Style, and have found information on the Church's help in fostering Celtic Physical Culture. As a matter of fact I have found references in historical wrestling texts that make reference to wrestling practices that begin with a dedication to a saint and oaths to being a professing Christian before one is allowed to compete in wrestling. It is my hope, therefore, that I might bring to light information that shows that Catholics and other Christians might enjoy physical activities of a Martial Arts nature that lack a pagan philosophical creed. It is my hope on this topic to show Catholic spiritual practices can be embraced in the physical aspects of culture without "christianizing" a pagan physical system. The Celtic Culture had many physical activities that were preserved through the Catholic Church because of Her insistence that the body is good. This post is merely presented as an introduction to further posts I'll be making on the board. Please I welcome contructive feedback,I really want to hear from my brother in Christ.

Mike, poor sinner

Mike,
What does "Anam Cara" mean?
Tammy

Tammy,

Anam Cara is Irish Gaelic and means " Soul Friend" It usually implies a strong emotional and or Spiritual bond exists between one person and another in a Friendship. Thanks for asking!

Mike , poor sinner

Dear Mike,

I used to be into amateur wrestling in a big way.

My wife wouldn't let me go professional though . . .

I've seen one book written by an Evangelical Christian who was a pro wrestler but I don't remember the title.

In the Cathedral of St Sophia in Kyiv, there are iconographic depictions of wrestlers on the walls and other scenes from daily life - everything is brought into the experience of Theosis or divinization.

And recently a Pentecostal church in our neighbourhood hosted a Christian outreach pro wrestling card featuring Born Again wrestlers like Ted diBiase the "Million Dollar Man" who was also on our local radio station decrying contemporary pro wrestling as immoral etc.

I think it's more than just immoral - I think it's fake on top of that too!!

And certainly, the Fathers often compared the monastic vocation as a wrestling match with the devil.

Just as Greco-Roman wrestlers entered the ring unclothed, so too the Fathers emulated this spiritually by divesting themselves of vices etc.

And then there's the matter of the devil not fighting by the rule-book . . .

God bless!

Alex

Hi Alex,

I'm glad to see you brought up the Fathers comments on wrestling. Wrestling for me has made the Fathers principals much more understandable. I use wrestling as a metaphor for spiritual combat. I've experienced many a spiritual insight while analyzing a wrestling technique. Also when I learned about a book called MAGNIFICENT SCUFFLERS and learned that Irish clergy helped Collar and Elbow wrestling prosper because of the doctrine of the goodness of the body, it thrilled me. I've been involved in Martial Arts for 20 yrs now and its philosophical ideals are not my cup of tea. After reading through most of above mentioned book , I was motivated to pass on any information that might help others like myself. I thought other,like myself, might find an outlet for physical activities that resonates more clearly with their faith. I know of another man that actually practices self-defense with an Irish shilleigh and stresses Catholic Spirituality because the core of what he knows has always been taught with this self-same spirituality . I thank you for understanding the importance of wrestling in the Fathers and I, too, take their allusions to wrestling with spiritual enemies. Since the Catechism also emphasizes that physical activity is good for health purposes I thought I would mention to those here that other pagan philosophies that are packaged with certain physical activities have counterparts in activities that have a Catholic Spirituality. I also hoped to show that these activities were Catholic based activities for centuries. a 15th or 16th century(I forget which) German Wrestling practice session is begun in the name of St.George.

God's Blessing,

Mike,poor sinner

Dear Michael,

Fascinating!

It was St Nestor of Thessalonica, friend of St Demetrius of Thessalonica, who is the Greek patron saint of wrestling.

Nestor was a wrestler who challenged Lius to a match after the latter killed Demetrius in combat - at the command of the pagan governor.

Nestor easily defeated Lius - for which he was also martyred.

There is also a locally venerated Orthodox priest, a great martial arts expert in his own rite, who was murdered by having his throat slit in ritual fashion in Odessa, Ukraine (Fr. McNichols has written an icon of him and I think Trinity Press has it).

This is Fr. Nestor Savchuk. A master at martial arts, boxing and wrestling, Nestor awoke from his atheistic sleep and later became an Orthodox priest.

(If you know the story, please feel free to stop me any time . . .)

Icons were being stolen from his parish to be sold on the black market. One fine winter's day, he noticed tire tracks in the snow, followed them and was confronted by three gentlemen who made the mistake of trying to fight him.

They were hopelessly outnumbered and overpowered by Fr. Nestor . . .

While in prison, Fr. Nestor told them he wouldn't press charges if they promised to stop stealing icons. They said, "No."

It was on January 9th, I believe, 1993 that Fr. Nestor was found, murdered in ritual fashion to make it seem, apparently, that he was done to death by a satanic cult - there are now a number of Orthodox priests and monastics in Russia, as I understand, who have been martyred by such.

St Nestor Savchuk is highly venerated by young people across the pond and I thought I'd call your attention to this saintly martial arts champion, if you hadn't come across him before.

St Nestor Savchuk, pray unto God for us!

Alex

Dear Alex,

you are fast becoming a person I'd enjoy building a friendship with on this forum. St.Nestor and St. Demetrius are further reasons why I'll soon attempt to try and establish a wrestling Academy where my family and I live. I thank you for all the information you have provided me. I've been wanting to get on this forum but I've not liked the disdain that people show towards each other on Message boards. You are kind, thank you. It is also interesting that you mentioned the ritual killings . When I had left the Church for awhile I had dated(when I was single)a black witch. I had not know she was a black witch because she did tell me until she had me meet a friend of hers that turned out to be here coven leader. I have a heart for those who are attracted or are abused by those darkened souls who are in these evil groups. My prayers are with the Orthodox priests who suffer these atrocities. I am grateful for information like that from you. As a closing note I'd like to say two things 1) that Wrestling figures are also present on a Celtic Cross we hang in our family room as representative of our spiritual struggle, and 2) I hope you take up wrestling again some day, you have the prerequisites for a champion,a good heart. I saw this by the way you handled yourself when others were rudely deriding you when you left earlier this month. I'm happy to get to know you and hopefully others like you.


Dhia Dhuit,

Mike, poor sinner

Dear Mike,

Actually, I would prefer to physically wrestle those here who want a showdown with me! Talk is cheap, as they say . . .

I've developed diabetes and my first instinct was to slow down the physical exercise - but I was wrong!

The nice thing about amateur wrestling is that it exercises all muscles, as you know, and you don't need a lot for a daily workout. I was once in such good shape that I could take on and win up to 12 matches after school. My wrestling coach was a great fellow and friend and made me work hard - I miss him and his counsel to me. Of all my teachers and professors, it is my wrestling coach who gave me the most useful guidance.

I've begun working out again and, for me, that really is the key to lowering blood sugar.

And I love all things Celtic and see many points of connection with Eastern Christianity as well.

God bless you and your family!

Alex

Boy, Alex, are you a Renaissance man or what? Sociologist, historian, theologian, philosopher, and rassler.

Dear Daniel,

It's only when I was rasslin' that I was always on top . . .

I was picked on in school until my wrestling coach got hold of me and had me train daily, running over a mile each day for starters, and if I didn't do sixty push-ups in sixty seconds, well, you don't want to know . . .

After a year of this regimen, I developed some strong muscles.

I put some bullying football players in their place, let me tell you. They actually begged me for mercy, but I kept telling them that I wasn't really putting that much pressure on them . . .

They asked me to join the football team. But I told them I wouldn't - football was for wusses, after all

And I applaud the introduction of wrestling for girls in high school - girls should know how to defend themselves against wusses like overly eager football players . . .

And didn't Jacob ALMOST beat an Angel or something in a free for all at some point?

Alex

Brother Anam Cara,


Bail O Dia ort!

Welcome to the forum fellow Celt!


slainte chugat,
Michael

Hi again,

Thank you Celtic Son you have, like Alex, made me feel welcome. As to Daniel I wish you well also. Also Daniel I do not find it strange that Alex wears many hats(sociologist,amateur historian, wrestler), we all do. I,myself, have a degree in psychology(B.A. working on money for Masters in Marriage couneling) , my interest in History is what brought me back to the faith and furthered my interest in my Irish heritage, and I've been a Martial Artist for twenty years. I'm also a husband to my wife for 11 yrs, a father to three wonderful boys. I was also a Child Protective Services Social worker and an Employment Counselor for the Welfare Department. Life is about growth. I'm sure you, Daniel, have worn many hats and performed many functions in life as well. This experience has, probably, left you with knowledge in many areas as well. So why such apparent animosity Daniel?

Paul in 1 corinthians sttates that when one of us suffers we all suffer. Following this principle, animosity or any other negative emotional responses toward another Christian hurts us all. In a very real way, animosity toward our brothers is animosity toward ourselves for we are one in the Spirit. Please brother think on this.

Christ's Love to all,

Mike,poor sinner

Fellow Celt- What is it about my humor that is so often misinterpreted on this forum? I even used one of those smiley faces! Are we all so thin-skinned and humorless as that? Alex wasn't offended, and I wasn't displaying animosity at all. Sheesh.

Dear Friends,

Now that we have had a behavioral discussion, I would like to continue on with our conversation involving Celtic Cultural and spiritual pursuits.
It is my hope we can do this in true Christian friendship without further discussion on our foilables.


God Bless you all through Christ,

Mike , a poor sinner

Dear Friends,

I'd also like to point out that there are other styles of Celtic Wretling as well. Gouren, a celtic style practiced in Britainy, has international competitions. Along with this style there is also Cornish Wrestling and scottish backhold wrestling to name a few. There is also several organizations that are overseeing these sports. If Anyone would like there Web URL I can give you some of these. John Hurley, a Roman Rite Catholic , has a website for these wrestling styles with tapes and books for sale. He is very open to Eastern Church spirituality as well. God's blessing to you all!!

Mike, poor sinner

I don't think they can compete with the Gaelic passion for the manly art of boxing.

hi Lawrence,

good to see your interest in all things gaelic. I was not intending to make it a competition between the passion for boxing and wrestling. both are realy good sports. I was merely stating where one could get information on Celtic wrestling.

I should note , though, that the earliest forms of wrestling worldwide included strikes with the fists and feet. As to the Gaelic passion , Wrestling is yet another passion of the Gaelic peoples, as is evidenced by the pictorial references of wrestling on some Celtic crosses and other art work.If you have information on Celtic Spirituality and boxing I'd love to here it. My references to wrestling were intend to show the connection between Catholic/Orthodox spirituality and Celtic wrestling. I did this in order to show that there were options for those of us who want a Christian Culture in the physical realm inside of many martial Arts' pagan philosophies. Celtic wrestling serves this purpose, because the Fathers of the Church make reference to wrestling as a metaphor for spiritual combat and it combines Celtic culture with these references. I was in no way implying boxing was not a passion of the Gaelic peoples. I would greatly appreciate any references that might show spirituality and boxing being taught together as a path of spirituality. That would make my day too.

In Gouren, a form of Celtic Wrestling,
a profession of being Christian was made along with an oath that they would not use witchcraft to win against their opponent. There is therefore a direct reference to our faith as an intrinsic part of these arts. This is the theme I was introducing here in this thread. Yet as I said if you have any references to boxing being an intrinsic example of Catholic/ Orthodox Spirituality I would be ecstatic.

All God's Blessing to you all here,

Mike , a poor sinner

Dear Daniel,

No offense was taken by anyone, Big Guy!

You add so much to the forum with your insights - we all cherish and value you very highly!

God bless you on this Thanksgiving Day!

Alex

Thanks, Alex. Even when we've had our moments of strife I've welcomed your sense of humor [and your ever-fascinating wealth of knowledge]. God bless you on this, our only civic holyday!

Dear Daniel,

We Canucks in Canuckistan up here used to celebrate Thanksgiving with the U.S., but then this was changed at some point and moved to October. I guess someone wanted to "Canadianize" it . . .

One issue is that Canuckistan is so multicultural that we don't have a national self-identity like you Americans.

Sniff . . .

Anyway, happy Thanksgiving!

Alex

Canuckistan!

Dia duit Anam Cara!

I've never had the pleasure of collar wrestling, I've been more of a hurler myself (an have got the X-rays to prove it)


-Brendan

Brendan,

I'm so glad to meet you. I'm so glad to see another Celtic athlete. Have you ever had the opportunity to try Scottish backhold wrestling? We have a Scottish heritage society in Bakersfield, and I'm going to try to introduce various forms of Celtic wrestling here including scottish backhold to this group.

Slan,

Mike, a poor sinner

Dia Duit Brendan,

For clarification, I'd like to state, that I'm going to introduce backhold wrestling and Catholic spirituality to the Scottish Heritage Society.

Dia Duit Brendan,


Would you like a link to Scottish Backhold Website? if so let me know I'll PM you and others that want the URL for this kind of wrestling.

Slan,

Mike

Didn't John Paul II condemn boxing as inherently immoral? After all, while one may be injured playing other sports in boxing injuring one's opponent is the aim of the thing.
Attempting to spiritualize what is essentially ass-kicking strikes me as a bit absurd.

Daniel,

I understand your concerns...I hope you understand that my primary concern was with wrestling as an expression of spiritual combat. The eastern Fathers used wrestling as such expression as did St.Paul in Ephesians. I have a book that mentions also that wrestling was used as a means to show that the Church saved not only souls but bodies as well. I hope that clarifies my position at least.

Blessings in Christ Our God,

Mike , poor sinner

Alex and Others,

I've found a international Celtic Wrestling group to join and if I'm accepted I'll be able to gain credibility as a spokesperson and teacher for Celtic Physical Culture combined with Catholic Spirituality. Please pray I'm accepted.


Mike poor wornout sinner

Dia Duit ,

I was doing more research on Collar and Elbow Wrestlng as I know it was brought to the states by the Irish. Vermont was the premiere state for this type of Celtic Wrestling. What I also have discovered is that many of our presidents practiced Collar and Elbow Wrestling. Most notable was George Washington, our first President. This he learned at a finishing school for gentry. The site where this information can be found is:

http://www.bloomington.in.us/~southmat/famous.html


While this does not show any Catholic Spirituality connection perse. It still shows, I think, a very Catholic influence on our earliest national founding fathers. Please feel free to to go to the site and read.


Slan,

Mike , a poor sinner