www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Do You Agree With This Action

You have no idea where I've been, and I'm certainly not going to base how many Orthodox Christians visit an ancient Christian site based on what t-shirts you've read.

So make your bet as high as you want.

PT

I think that it is certainly clear that catho-doxes have the "shrine" imprint. The whole point behind the Crusades was to rescue the Christian shrines although I'm sure that commerce was a pretty close second.

When I watch the late-night Christian ministry shows, Benny Hinn, Popov, and that guy who's always quoting the Pope - I forget his name but his wife is Roxella, etc., they reveal a strong presence of the "latter days" protestant revivalism. For them, the personal connection with the so-called "Holy Land" and their desire to be in Jerusalem when the final call sounds is a true impetus to visit Jerusalem. They oftentimes have specials on the preacher in the Holy Land. (How many cars have we seen with the bumper sticker: "When the Rapture comes, this car will be without a driver"). Their personal spirituality is very involved with the "personal Jesus". And to be in the place where He walked is for them a great blessing. So, it makes sense that there'll be a lot of them making the trip ("pilgrimage" is too "Catholic" a term!).

Let's face it: in the US, Catholics are overwhelmed by the protestants, either mainstream or 'evangelical'. Orthodox or Eastern Catholics are barely a blip on the radar. So, at least from North America, even if all our peoples went there every year, it seems logical that we'd still be outnumbered. Substantially.

As for Eastern Catholics and Orthodoxes from Europe, the homelands are either just emerging from 70+ years of persecution or are just "poor" and there is likely to be little money to travel, and especially to a war-torn part of the world. If you're Balkan, why not Syros or Tinos or even the Holy Mountain? If you're Catholic, why not Rome, or Assisi?

It just makes sense to me that the overwhelming majority of visitors would be the folks who have the money to travel, or who are poor but are very strongly motivated. And those usually aren't us Eastern folks.

So, if an Arab Christian wants to make a point about current politics, barring "the warmongers" would seem to be the only viable possibility.

Blessings!

Blessings!

Friends,

Since I meet Axios' qualification of having been a travel agent and having been to the Holy Land I would like to weigh in.

That there are (at least were) large numbers of American visitors to the Holy Land is clear. The religious affiliation of that large number should reflect American demographics. However, to imagine that only Americans visit the Holy Land is, of course, wrong. I remember once seeing some statistics (if I can find some online I will share as I hope others do) that showed that the number of visitors a year from North America to Israel equalled the number from Europe. In that number from North America one has to account for the large number of Jews living in the USA who travel to Israel.

I imagine that Dr. John includes the Greeks among those he considers "just 'poor.'" While that is likely true, one must also consider that the cost to travel from Greece to the Holy Land is much less than from North America. The same can be said of most of the other historic Orthodox (and Catholic) lands, they are much closer and as such the cost of travel is somewhat less.

Another thing that should be mentioned. While it is true that there has been a strong Protestant, especially English it seems, presence in the Holy Land recently (100 years?) I don't think that the notion of "pilgrimage" is that strong. I grew up Evangelical Protestant and met very few others who were promoting travel to the Holy Land or who had been there. I remember clearly one friend of the family who went with a church group to the Holy Land, she came back sorely dissapointed. Having said that I do recognize that many TV evanglisists push Israel in a peculiar way and many mainstream Protestant churches promote travel to the "Holy Land" I just think it is experienced vastly differently.

One last note from having worked in travel for 10 years. Americans tend to be very visible, especially to other Americans. That can be misleading. I do not question others' experiences and perceptions however for me this last point deserves reflection.

I wish all fruitful Fast.

Tony

I am going to stand by my post. I realize the methodology I have raised is subjective, but the contrary opinion has presented no evidence of any quality.

I think the presence of centers in the Holy Land to care for Protestant pilgrims and a simple internet search of the many Protestant pilgrimage groups is sufficent to prove that many Protestants have a desire to visit the Church of the Nativity.

If anyone has any contrary evidence, I would be interested in reading it.

Axios

Hello Friends,

Setting aside statistics and scorecards for a moment.

We should rejoice anytime a Protestant or non-Christian visits the Church of the Nativity.

God bless,

Paul

Shlomo Fr. Thomas,
The CBC (Canadian Broadcast Corp.) has confirmed that the Eastern Orthodox Church has "excommunicated" Bush and Blair.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I don't get it.

How can a church excommunicate someone who isn't a member??

Paul

Dear Paul,

It has happened before.

Pope Pius V excommunicated Queen Elizabeth I even though she was a Protestant.

It was a formal way of saying, "You are cut off from God."

In those days too, if a Sovereign head of state in Catholic Europe was excommunicated, his or her subjects had an obligation to: a) no longer consider themselves his or her subjects and b) work to have him or her replaced.

This is why English Catholics begged the Pope not to go ahead with this act - after the excommunication became public, persecution of Catholics as "traitors" intensified even more in England and Wales.

But the Orthodox excommunicating Bush and Blair?

That does raise interesting questions . . .

Like what about the fact that the Episcopalians and RC's are already deemed "cut off" from Orthodoxy?

Isn't this "kicking a dead horse (or two)" then?

Alex

Friends:


Strictly (or technically) speaking, the "excommunication" is ineffective!

Only the Catholic Church "excommunicates"; the Orthodox Churches "anathematize," or proclaim an anathema on everybody else.

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Let it never be said that I refused to withdraw a post after having my knuckles rapped . . .

Alex

Dear Amado,

The latest from an Orthodox friend of mine here who shares our view of that "excommunication:"

The Iraqi command gathers together all 56 Saddam Hussein look-alikes.

The commander says to them, "I have some good news and some bad news that affects you all today.

"The good news is that our leader whom you reflect in your appearance survived an air attack by the 'coalition of satan.'

"But the bad news is that he lost an arm . . ."

Alex

Alex:


Rumors have it that the next day, the same Commander summoned all Saddam's doubles and gravely, but solemnly, announced that their great leader lost a leg to a surgical bombing of his secret underground bunker the night before. . .

All the doubles were fast enough to draw their respective pistols (even those left-handed) and peppered their Commander with bullet holes!

AmdG

Alex:


Re your deleted post, are the Orthodox cyberpolice that fast?

(Should I go deep into my bunker, pronto?)

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Would that they would truly be Orthodox . . .

No problem, I'm easy! (but not cheap . . . ).

Alex