www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Venting Anger ....

Dan,

I think that while there is some general merit to what you say on self-reliance, in the particular context of the hurricane and flood it is way off. Any people in the area who relied on themselves rather than information and emergency preparedness plans of government agencies are almost certainly now dead.

Where did that idea that a major hurricane was heading for the area came from? Where did the call for voluntary and mandatory evacuation come from? Where did the blocking and routing of traffic come from? How were staging areas for public transportation established? And emergency shelter?

If you like to criticize the local officials you might read their FEMA approved plans at the website http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/ , and compare the outcome of evacuation with the plans - including the estimates about how many folks would respond too late for evacuation and what to do about them. What can be said is that with the help of the government over 80% got the warning and got out. And Rose before you start passing on the spin that it Blanco is to blame, scutinize the facts. There is a lot of misinformation about, now that we are in CYA mode. For example, while WaPo did publish the comment of a "senior white house official" that the governor did not declare a state of emergency even as late as 9/3, they later retracted the statement: the fact is, the declaration was made 8/26. I think that there will lots that can be learned about mistakes that were made at all levels; let's not neglect the top, where Homeland Security is seated and organized.

What makes me angry is the unforgivably slow response.

Citizens who survived the hurricane were in great danger from all of the hazards posed by the flood. They were then trapped without food or water in sweltering heat, and largely without security. There was hesitation uncertainty instead of single-minded determination to get people out of harms way. People remained in jeopardy and were dying of neglect five days after the hurricane. "Unacceptable" is not nearly strong enough.

It may be appealing to some to be critical about the lack of self-relaince of those who were cut-off in this way. If it makes you all feel better, it was reported that a man in the superdome thought to have committed a rape was in fact killed. Another report emerged of a man who upon hearing of a rape ran toward a security detail for help. They mistook him for a threat an shot him dead. Who knows if any of this is true. Maybe just urban legends, like the helicopter being shot at - news to the FAA that was handling all of the air traffic in NO.

Guess what. There are criminals, alcoholics addicts, and sociopaths among us. And in cities with big populations there are lots of them. And their concentration is probably very high in the crowd that did make the evacuation. You want the rest of the crowd, already suffering total loss and deprivation to organize themselves, just like that, and by themselves fend off the criminal element. If that were in the NO emergency preparedness plan (it wasn't), then shame on them for being so naive. Here's a better plan: get overwheling force, armed and trained, into the area, and get them there fast. And stop blaming the poor folks who were trying to survive while trapped with the thugs.

djs,

It's not either self reliance or governmental effectiveness. It is both and.

1. Why are there pictures of scores of busses sitting in their parking spaces flooded to the point they could not be used?

2. Why are their so few boats to evacuate people from a flood that was almost certain to happen?

3. Why did such a large percentage of people remain in their homes when they could have left?

Local governments are to be blamed for the first two. A lack of self reliance may be the blame for the latter, though many who were left behind were in hospital and couldn't get out on their own.

Clearly, its a mixture. My friend from LA believes was mostly a lack of self reliance. I believe it is about even.

Dan L

Go read the plan, Dan.

The plan includes setting up staging areas for those without transportation to be evacuated by busses. I don't know whether that worked or not. But the plan, also includes shutting down evacuation routes ones the gale forces winds made travel to dangerous, and then using the staging areas as emergency shelters. At which point the buses are halted.

It was anticpated in the FEMA approved plan that 10-20% would not get evacuated. And that is pretty much how it turned out. Why? Well, some self-reliant folks just refused to leave. Others were too slow, and others were just clueless. This includes a group of British tourists who spend a few days scared out of their wits in the Superdome - especially when all eyes were upon them as they were being the first led out. At least the band wasn't playing "Bye Bye Blackbird" as in 1927! These kids were on vacation and not looking at the news at all. And the criminal element might just see the evacuation as an invitation to stay.

The boats: There have been some reports that FEMA was keeping boats out. Here are some citations, for what they're worth: http://constructiveinterference.blogspot.com/2005/09/local-failure-caused-by-fema.html I don't know itf that is reliable. I just get the sense that, in typical bureaucratic way FEMA wanted as its first priority first wanted to be in exclusive control. Btw way Sen. Landireu's brother, the Lt. Gov. of the state was out in his boat hatcheting his way through house roofs. Thre are some hero's here. (I also love the 17 year old who hot-wired a school bus and drove a hundred evacuees to Houston.

I think the evacuation went as well as might be reasonably expected, and that we will learn from this to do better, if possible (you really should read the plan). But I see the federal bureaucracy as the grossly inept player in this sorry saga. They have the information, the supplies, and the manpower to get in and save people. This is their charge, it's why we have them. And they blew it.

I think you define "self reliant" differently than I do or than most do. That may be the cause of our failure to communicate.

Dan L

We can all point fingers here and there. I think the problem here was, a city that is built below sea level was a catastrophe waiting to happen. Now that the storm has passed and evacuation is being done, the city needs to look seriously at the situation they are in. Hurricanes will keep coming. The levee situation isn't working. Use common sense people. If you are to rebuild, think first!

tlk,

That is the situation now. I still wonder if it is possible to live close enough to the delta without being in the flood plain. Perhaps not.

Dan L

Oh, and one more thing Dan, I agree that you must take responsibility for yourself if you are able to. If you are perfectly capable to move yourself out of harms way and you refuse, what else can be done for you? If you are asked to leave, go if possible.

Dan, I have family on the coast who evacuate when a hurricane comes. Why take the chance. If you live in a low lying area, there is a good chance that you will see flooding. I can't see how the people of New Orleans didn't see that it was only a matter of time before this happened. You can't close your eyes to the truth. It will eventually smack you in the face when you aren't looking!

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am not sure how many of you have lived through a natural phenomenon that involves the possible or actual swath of destruction and loss that the folks in New Orleans have undergone!

Here in South Florida, we experienced the landfall of Hurricane Katrina as a Level I hurricane. In our area we experienced the winds and noise and the rains of the hurricane. Lives were lost and people suffered injuries. Some homes were destroyed and many more were damaged. Great trees were brought low.

Power was out for some time (from two to ten days). In the heat of the dog days of a Florida summer this was not a situation in which it was easy to be.

Yet, we were spared the worst of the storm. Our degree of loss is miniscule compared to that in New Orleans! We are eternally grateful to God.

From our limited experience of the destructive force of this storm I can only empathize with those left to fend for themselves in this fury and its aftermath.

I find it ifficult to read that to some of my fellow posters the victims have become the morally culpable accomplices to the violence and evil doing of a few! Stranger still is the notion that these people, most apparently poor, should have the personal or communal psychic resources to take charge of the situation.

We felt great fear and anxiety here in South Florida at the onslaught of a Category I hurricane. Knowing that, It simply amazes me that anyone outside that situation would presume to pass judgement on the morality of the behavior of terrified and distraught victims of the terror in New Orleans. Who can say what he or she would be like in like conditions?

Of couse I am not speaking of those victims who chose to become rapists or killers. Nor am I suggesting that anyone associated with the Forum would become like them.

I pray that all of us never have to experience the degradation and horror felt by the poor in New Orleans.

The comments of the Mayor of New Orleans in which he told people at all levels who could help to get up off their duffs and help rang true to me.

I'm sure that there is blame enough to splatter on officials from top to bottom.

It is refreshing to hear the outrage of those who say that it was shameful to allow the victims to be without food and water for five days or longer!

I wonder how great the outrage is for the incompetence and malfeasance that allowed it to continue? Are the victims and the local administrators the only persons who have moral obligations in the situation?

I wonder about people who did not implement what plans there were. I wonder about people who were responsible for knowing and days into the horror did not know that there were survivors in great numbers in the Superdome and at the convention center.

I wonder about the politicians who chose to divert funds from levee building to other parts of the world and to tax cuts after having been warned about the probability of a catastrophe like this one.

I wonder because the next time this level of incompetence and neglect occurs it might have horrendous results for us in South Florida!

I certainly pray that the Lord of Wisdom grant to the powers that be a great increase in competence and understanding.

I pray that the God Who loves us so much that He sent His son to die for us will change the focus of our national spending from accumulating even greater wealth to preparing for such disasters whether of storm or earthquake or other force of nature.

May He guide our leaders so that what happened in New Orleans will never be repeated in our country.

I also pray for all of us in hurricane prone areas the the God of Wind and Rain will restrain His creations and make them work to the blessing of our neighbors.

I pray this with deep fervor in Jesus Name because the next storm or earthquake or string of tornadoes might be make us here, or you where you are, the next victims!

May we resist the temptation to judge victims and make them perpertrators until we have walked in their footsteps!

Forgive me for this relatively selfish prayer.

Steve

Steve,
To you I say---Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!
Forgive a sinner.

tlk,

That is the situation now. I still wonder if it is possible to live close enough to the delta without being in the flood plain. Perhaps not.

Dan L

True enough Steve. It is my understanding that when national funds were sought to build up the interstructure in Louisiana, our senate voted it down.

Thank God you have Jeb Bush as govenor. Whenever an impending storm threatens So. Fla. he arranges for response teams - electrical, phone, water, and food - to standby in readyness in Ga. so that they can do their jobs as soon as the hurricane has past. From what I understand, he personally contacts the presidents of Home Depot and Lowes to make sure they increase their shipments of lumber, generators, etc. in anticipation of the impending threat.

If I remember correctly, the govenor at the time of Hurricane Andrew said in a news conference something to the effect that "We don't need any help. We can handle everything on our own." Jeb declares Florida to be a disaster area even before those hurricanes hit, thereby getting the feds and fema involved from the start.

Tim Russert said yesterday that not only is New Orleans between levees, the ground between the levees is subsiding. That makes a bad situation worse. I am wondering if the insurance companies will even insure buildings rebuilt in the same places.

It's been a while Inawe. Thanks for that excellent post.

Steve, indeed welcome back. Yes, perhaps we need to ask persons like the Republican senator of Alaska who chairs the transportation committee why his Highway to Nowhere got funded when the levee funding was stripped.

Regarding self-reliance, I think you are on the money, djs. My great uncle George, a veteran who hopped a few atolls in WWII fighting the Japanese, and turned 88 this year, was one of those self-reliant types in Metarie. My cousin had to physically remove him and put him in the car to flee. He certainly, undoubtedly, would be dead otherwise.