www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Vote: Abbreviated or Longer Liturgy?

This primarily relates to the recent discussions on the revised Liturgy for the Ruthenian Church. You don't have to be Ruthenian to vote, however.

One user has said that the results of this poll may be skewed by combining two different subjects: length of Liturgy with the Anaphora taken aloud. I see his point but want to add that this poll presumes that the Revised Liturgy will be here to stay. If that is the case, would we want more or not?

This is not a poll on the Revised Liturgy itself.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

I also am in favor of a longer well prepared
homily

The vote poses a false dilemma. It is perfectly possible to serve the complete Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom on a Sunday morning (using mostly Bakhmetev music, which is simple enough that those who wish to join in the singing are able to do so) and a sermon of reasonable length, so that the service (excluding the Preparation, of course) takes an hour, give or take a few minutes. On the other hand, if a given parish has special language needs (requiring the doubling of Scripture lessons and sermons) and/or prefers a more elaborate style of music, naturally the service will take longer - but even so, if it is done well, most people will not be languishing with terminal fatigue.
Incognitus

I beg to differ with incognitus relative to the time to celebrate the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom on a Sunday morning.

Our parochial practice is to follow "abbreviated antiphons and litanies", i.e., I do not intone the "Little Litanies" nor the so-called Angel of Peace Litany, but I would not describe our worship an "abbreviated" Liturgy. With about a 7 minute homily (10 minutes when the pastor allows me to deliver the homily ), our celebration is roughly 70 minutes + in length from "Father, give the blessing" to the final "Amen." Our cantors do not chant flourished pieces a la Tchaikovsky (sp?), but lead the congregation in plain chant. Presbyteral prayers (not just the doxologies), as well as the anaphora are intoned aloud. Except for the prayer in preparation of Holy Communion, "O Lord, I beleive and profess...) the whole Liturgy is chanted in English.

In what will no doubt offend some, we even utilize the dreaded pre-cut prosphora. In this seventy minutes there is no wasted movement. At the Little (Minor) and Great Entrances full processions through the nave are made. Of course this includes both the priest and yours truly distributing the Eucharist (8-10 minutes)to about 160 +/- communicants. This does not include the time prior to the Divine Liturgy in which the Office of the Third Hour is prayed (15-20 minutes) at which a majority of the faithful are now participating. So we are now talking 90 minutes +/-.

Mind you, I am not complaining, but I think given our celebration, incognitus is incorrect.

I don't know about other parishes, but given the distances people drive, the catechetical instruction is given, after the Liturgy and after a 20 minute social period, to the adults and children for another hour or so. Our Sunday celebration begins about 9:40 AM and lasts until 12:50- 1:00 PM.

I am not an advocate of truncating the Liturgy, but we have seen the Liturgy evolve given the change of demographics. The antiphons were sung in procession on the way to the Great Church and the Minor Entrance was the entrance to the temple to begin the Liturgy, but what we have now are vestiges of those great processions of the faithful with the clergy and altar servers fulfilling that role. My point is (besides differing with the opion of incognitus) that the Liturgy will adapt to the circumstances of the faithful.

Ah, but incognitus refers to the use of Bakhmetev (a clue for the what's my line thread), whereas you are presumably using our prostopinije. Especially in the short responses the latter music is considerably elongated over the former. Our music is - in many places, including the short responses - more "song" than "chant", and takes longer.

Father Deacon John,

Thanks for sharing how the Liturgy is done at St Stephen's. It brought back many fond memories. Any chance that someday the St Stephen website might have an online video of the Divine Liturgy as celebrated there?

Father Deacon writes that "I do not intone the "Little Litanies" nor the so-called Angel of Peace Litany, but I would not describe our worship an "abbreviated" Liturgy." Excuse me? He has just described some of the abbreviations, and then says that the Liturgy is not abbreviated!
Not only is the use of "pre-cut prosphora" offensive, it is also specifically forbidden by the Ordo Celebrationis. Moreover, this is not a question of time, so I fail to see the relevance.
And yes, as someone has already pointed out (my thanks for this), I did specify Bakhmetev's music, and that is much less time-consuming than prostopinije. I cannot begin to imagine what a single voice trying to sing Tchaikovsky would sound like, but I have no wish to go and hear it!

Incognitus

Right now 88% are in favor of a longer Liturgy. But, then, only 42 have voted. If you haven't voted, add your voice.

Just a note about the typical liturgy from the fourth century onward. The sermons alone were 3-4 hours without pews. What a bunch of wimps we have become! Why can't we adapt processions that include the people? I should think our modern compromise in this area hurts more than helps. One thing that does annoy perhaps more than all else is the fact that the laity have relinguished so much of the liturgy to the clergy. We are much better at keeping the laity involved than the RC's or Protestants but come on...processions that used to include the laity ought to still. Moreover, the holy kiss offered to each other by the clergy ought also to be offered by the laity to one another. I could go on, but you get my drift.

One more thing, the ancient church had much longer sermons was in order to educate the people. The Church was growing (without the internet or TV or Telephone) and people needed to be catechized. The Church continued to grow despite or, gasp, because of the longer sermons. So, I would conclude that the reason we don't have longer liturgies and longer sermons is because we are not growing and we don't want to grow.

Dan L

Hmmm.

We DO take three verses of three antiphons, and the little litanies in between, the "Angel of peace" litany, as well as the Litany of the Catechumens and the two that follow. We sing pretty straight Prostopinije, (and the congegation SINGS) Father gives a homily, and we're almost always out in an hour & ten or an hour & 15 or so, unless it's a major Feast or something else unusual.

I've been in some parishes where they take the Reader's Digest Condensed Liturgy, but it takes them longer than us - and you can die of old age as they plow through the Cherubic Hymn. We certainly don't "race" but we do keep things moving along.

Cheers,

Sharon

Dear Sharon,

It sounds like your parish is blessed with a very gifted cantor!

I found what was said about "dying of old age" interesting. As a cantor, I've been told I take things too slowly by some of our parishioners. Trouble is, when we try to speed things up, the congregation fragments into a sort of echo, with some folks lagging behind. It reminds me of lost sheep. The only way I have been able to restore unity of sound is by arriving at tempos that everyone will sing, regardless of whether they like it personally or not. There is a saying, "There they go. I must hurry after them, for I am their leader." I always thought that was a sort of self-deprecating thing to say until I became a cantor.

I made myself to have a habit of turning my watch face to the underside of my wrist during the Divine Liturgy. Now, when I look at the topside of my wrist and see only the buckle of my watch band, I remind myself of what "a clock-watching sinner I really am" and try to return to important things like worship and prayer.

God have mercy on us as we "time" the Liturgy!

In Christ,
Andrew

With regard to the tempi used for the Cherubic Hymn, it can depend on whether the church has a deacon serving at the liturgy or not. The priest has to perform double duty if there is no deacon by doing his own prayers as well as the censing of the church. This complicates things for the singing of the Cherubic Hymn. It is supposed to be sung 3 times only. 4-part choirs led by a director can be redirected to the beginning of a phrase for a repeat, to lengthen the hymn, but it's not so simple to do this where congregational singing is used. People sometimes just clam up. Also, if the hymn goes too fast, the congregation is faced with either singing it a fourth time (not traditional), or just sitting quietly until the Great Entrance begins. (If anyone has other suggestions on this situation, please share.)