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ExRomanCatholic@Work,

God go with you. Why not choose a positive name?

That said, I don't understand the mean spiritedness of those posters who have attacked you. I think you are hurting over the corruption of the Church. I think you have seen it first hand. I weep with you over what many have done to corrupt the Church. I disavow any sympathy for those who, on this board, defend sexual perverts and predators or who would defend those who protect them. Our children are more important than wolves in sheeps clothing. Anyone who defends these people is complicitous with them.

Dan Lauffer

Dan Lauffer,

You are correct! May name might be an offensive to people and I will change it. I am not here to judge people but looking for honest Christian dialog about an issue that deeply troubles me. I have not named names of priest except those how have left the ministry and where proven guilty (e.g. Bishop Cawcutt's) for there crimes (e.g. threating the life of Cardinal Ratizenger). Nor have I lead any clues (e.g. priest at my cousins wedding), which would allow a poster to figure out who I was speaking of.

If I have offended any in this room please forgive me!

God Bless and Please PRAY for me! I really need your prayers. Most of all please PRAY for the priests who are struggling with there faith.

Christian,

You're a good man. Let's prayer for each other. Especially pray that I don't get overcome with envy because you live where I can only hope to live someday...Sunny Florida.

Dan Lauffer

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

I think we are faced with a difficult problem. And as Byzantine Catholics, who are in full communion with the Latin Church, to some extent we are called to share in their passion and cleansing. Although we do not share in many of the same crosses, nevertheless we are a part of the same Mystical Body. When one part suffers we all suffer.

Many think that someone else's ecclesial backyard would be better as in the case of Catholics going Orthodox, but the reality is in Christ we are one Church regardless of the so-called juridicial realities at this time. And being such we are all called to help heal this grave sin of division. We must learn to grow were we are planted. I have had many struggles with this, but the Lord has called me to be Byzantine Catholic and so I must grow in that part of Christ's Vinyard; what a glorious Vinyard it is! But I think we must forever think deeply about this issue of oneness in Christ. That by virtue of our Baptism we are united in the Holy Trinity. Tribalism and Triumphalism are signs of spiritual necrosis and disease. We often feel we are better than the Protestants and the Latins because we are not afflicted by their historical journey and theological drift. Or that we did not experience a Reformation or Scholasticism did not pre-dominate our spiritual paradigm, but in Christ, in Him we are united. And the petty efforts of some to use the Filoque, the Papacy, Latin theology and modernism to seperate us, or even the current crisis, are signs of diabolique victory. Oh, how the Devil glories in our current external divisions.

Yes, we must not fret to seek the diposition of clerics who are heretics and open grave and unrepentant sinners, especially, in these times when our children's purity and blessed chastity are being threatened, for even Christ reprimanded seriously the pharisees and saducees of His time when He lived on this earth. But still we must consider the Salvation of all - even until their dying breath, even of those who now reject the fullness of Christ and His Church. Spiritual Warfare has all but been forgotten by some of us who believe the temporal greater than the spritual; but it is the test of true Faith to believe the Spiritual greater and more efficatious then the sensory and worldly. Prayer is the greatest weapon again the Adversary and His attacks against the Church. It is the greatest weapon against heresy and sin. No Inquisition or group such as RCF has ever been able to root it out. Only prayer - only the people of God rising in holy indignation against the attacks of the Enemy have been truly victorious. The prayerful life makes saints, who in turn, like St. Francis of old, heal and pour salve upon the wounds of Christ afflicted by His Bride and make reparations for the attrocities inflicted upon the heart of God.

So let us pray. Let us pray that Christ may remove from our hearts the belief that the sword is greater than the intercession of the Saints and the prayers of the People of God. Those who mock those who believe the power of prayer can move mountains lack the testimony of the Scriptures and the Experience of the Fathers. As Byzantine Catholics, Orthodox and Latins we are called to the Supernatural Life; So for those who use temporal methods to remove spiritual diseases; they are not Orthodox. For if the cause of the sin is not rooted out the manifestation of it will continually occur and in the case of vices and sins and grave matters Prayer...Prayer of the Heart is the remedy. Christ told Peter to put the sword down because for the Christian our battles are not of the sword, but spiritual and of the Holy Spirit.

So let us go forth in Peace in the Name of the Lord.

Sincerely in Christ,


Robert

Instead of ranting and complaining, why don't you do something about it? What's the difference between Martin Luther and St. Francis of Assisi?

The difference is that Martin Luther was proud enough to LEAVE the Church. If you LEAVE the Church then there would be no chance for any reforms.

You see, St. Francis did NOT leave the Church, he stayed and reformed the Church. Like many other saints.

So, if you want some changes in the Church, then you STAY in the Church, do some prayers, fasting, almsgiving, etc. for the Church leaders and priests. And evangelize within.

The Orthodox Church is not free from problems either. There are TONS of gay Orthodox priests. Just as much as the Catholic. There are other problems in the Orthodox Churches as well. So no Church is perfect only because we're human (I'm not watering it down or make excuses or anything).

So, if you're looking for a Church with NO problems...then good luck! Because you won't find any Church that's perfect.

I do agree that there are problems and should be taken care of. I, too, pray for a holier Church.

I believe that this outbreak of the recent scandel is a GIFT FROM GOD...so it would wake us all up and realize what is really happening to the Church. Then so that we can take further steps to ensure the Church will remain holy and weed out the bad seeds.

Although the scandel is embarrassing for all of us, but it has to be done and I feel that it's a gift from Him.

God bless.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Is it possible for an Eastern Catholic to join "Roman Catholic Faithful"? Would we be told to MYOB as so many concerned Eastern Catholics have been told by RC's? Would we be told to MYOB by some EC's if we joined? After all that has been done on this forum.

Dan Lauffer

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

Ray,

I am very sorry to see you go. I've always enjoyed reading your posts, and your loss will be felt in the Byzantine Church. I had always hoped God was going to use you powerfully in our Church, and it sorrows me to see you leave like this.

Just remember a few points as you make your final decision. While the Church is universal, it is also fundamentally local. Locally, you belong to a great parish and have a wonderful and dedicated pastor (Fr. Michael). Is it really worth abandoning this community over problems taking place elsewhere??? Perhaps, as Shane said wisely, you are called to stay and work for change (like St. Francis), as opposed to leaving in anger (like Luther).

Anthony

Dan,

I am familiar with the group Roman Catholic Faithful, and have received literature from them in the past. While I understand their motivation, I do not agree with their tactics.

I am personally urging you not to get involved with them. They are in the midst of fighting the civil war within the Roman Church, which is an all consuming and tiring endeavor. While we are in full communion with the Roman Church, I nonetheless find greater peace concentrating on the challenges facing our own Byzantine Church. Belive me, Dan, we have more than a full plate of challenges facing our own Church. I would strongly encourage you to focus your energy on building up our Church (especially through evangelization), without expending your valuable strength on the Roman civil war.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, the Roman Church will be here in North America 100 years from now. The future of our Church is not so certain.

Please think about this,
Anthony

[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: Dragani ]

Well said, Anthony.

I'm a Secular Franciscan (Third Order)- and, as you all probably know, our order came about in time of great crisis and scandal. Also, as you all probably know, Francis' movement was fundamentally a lay movement - the brothers and sisters of penance - and we remain as such in these modern times of crisis and scandal.

I really think we must consider the good and healing work that we can continue to do for the community of the faithful, and for all who need the assistance we can provide them, through our prayers and labor given joyfully and in the spirit of peace.

Not to sound strange or like I'm skipping around amongst the flowers too much, but I really think that whatever we do for and in the community, should be out of LOVE, plain and simple.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In our history, we have had many times of trouble such as the one in which we live today. Because of this, it is possible to point out several things the Church has learned:

(1) The Donatist schism/heresy refused to deal with clergy that didn't live up to their standards and said that the sacraments they celebrated were 'sacraments without grace.' The Church reiterated its teaching that the true Priest of every sacrament is Christ, and that the holiness of the minister has NOTHING to do with the validity of the sacraments.

(2) In the time of St. Francis of Assisi (since he has been brought up already in this thread), there was another group of people who separated from the Church over this same issue (the holiness/lack of holiness of the hierarcy vs. the validity of the sacraments, with the supposed need to separate from the "larger" Church). While St. Francis (who was a deacon, and therefore a cleric himself) was deeply and sincerely interested in raising the level of holiness in the Church, he specifically said to his followers, "No matter how much a priest sin, you must respect him, because we receive the Body of Christ from his hand."

(3) A sociological observation: despite the implication that parents are nervous about their children being around celibate priests, and the concomittant implication that "homosexual" and "pedophile/ephebophile" are equivalent terms, the statistics kept on this show that the majority of people who molest children are, in fact, married men (i.e., heterosexuals). It is incredibly important to remember in this situation that sexual abuse is not primarily about having sex---it is a way of being "in control" that uses/abuses sex to maintain that control. It is why both incest and clerical sexual abuse are so dangerous---because they both involve authority over children and teenagers which was entrusted to specific adults by God. When this authority, which mirrors God for a child, is abused, this connection not only destroys the relationship the child has with the relative or pastor, it has a great chance of totally destroying the child's understanding of a loving and trustworthy God.

All of the anger in the world is not going to solve these problems. I am reminded of the Gospel of the Tenth Sunday after Pentecost (St. Matthew 17:14-23), where our Lord tells the disciples, "However, this kind of demon can be cast out only by prayer and fasting." If we turned our zeal into time spent in prayer and true ascesis for the holiness of our bishops and priests, we would see sincere and lasting change. It's a good challenge as we come to the close of the Dormition Fast, and the "day of reparation and prayer" that the USCCB has asked all Catholics, of whatever Church, to observe on Dormition Eve and Dormition Day.

Professor J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Thank you, professor. I will follow your lead on this.

Axios

Cleaning the house is a good idea.
The problem is that those things you mentioned, sincretism, for example are very complex.
The Spaniards were here during 3 centuries and they were not able to destroy the Pagan religions, not completely. The martyrs of Cajonos (recently beatified by JP II) are a good example of how the christian element fought against the Pagan elements.
I think that there's an "orthodox" sincretism (when the remains of a pagan cult are transformed and become christian and the christian element prevails). The problem is when the pagan culture prevails and I believe that there are a lot of hetherodox sincretist practices such as the animal sacrifice (still practiced by many catholics here).

I'd like to know how the Russian missions could control this among the Aleuts.

Some ancient forms of sincretism still exist in Georgia and Armenia (survey needed).

Professor,

"homosexual" and "pedophile/ephebophile" are equivalent terms, the statistics kept on this show that the majority of people who molest children are, in fact, married men (i.e., heterosexuals)."

How relevant is this when our priests are not married men? This seems a side issue and a distraction from the point of this thread and from the crimes committed by priests.

Dan Lauffer

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Mr. Lauffer,

The last point in my post was made in response to the posting of 8/11 at 7:50 p.m. made by the initator of the thread.

J. Michael Thompson

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[QB]Professor,

"homosexual" and "pedophile/ephebophile" are equivalent terms,

AGAIN (how many times!) They are NOT equivalent terms!!! homosexuality indicates an attraction to members of one's same sex between adults, the latter, attraction to children/teenage boys. They are VERY different. To equate them is dangerous and leads to greater bigotry not to understanding. To link them does not illumine this discussion.