www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek Orthodox Parish With Kneelers...!??!

Slava Isusu Chrystu!

I have just been to one... what gives? I realize that the Lain Church has a large sphere of influence, but is this not something you would expect to see an Orthodox Christian speaking to a Byzantine Catholic about (i.e. Latinizations in their parishes due to their "pupet" status to Rome)? (just kidding)

Seriously though... the parish has ALWAYS been Greek Orthodox, so I just wondereed about the kneelers.

IC XC
Crios
<'(((><

p.s.
Do the Greek Orthodox have and direct Eastern Catholic counterpart? Just curious...

The Greek Orthodox church near my house has kneelers. In addition, I know of another church in Alabama that has kneelers. Go Figure.

I can't tell you why just that there are many Orthodox churches that have them.

I guess it shows you how superficial the charge is. Ya, I think it's a Latinization. I've yet to find an Orthodox Church in America without pews and only one without kneelers.

Dan Lauffer :rolleyes:

" I guess it shows you how superficial the charge is. Ya, I think it's a Latinization. I've yet to find an Orthodox Church in America without pews and only one without kneelers."

It's a westernization, for sure. Here more of the Greek parishes than Russian ones have pews and kneelers. Most OCA parishes around here don't have pews (a few do), but all have chairs lined up in the nave. I have never seen either in the old country.

And St. Anne's Melkite Church in W. Paterson, NJ has an organ!!! I know of Orthodox Churches who have organs.

Dear Criostoir O'C:


I was wondering if this "quirk" in the Greek Orthodox Churches is not merely "Latinization" or, as Brendan surmises, "Westernization."

Rather, a thousand years of pre-schism Church unity or "oneness" is long enough for the East and West to afford one to "inculturate" the other, and vice versa.

The wonder in me is that we were once One, free of "cultural bias."


Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Brendan,

What is your idea on the difference between "latinization" and "westernization"?

djs

Well, pews were really introduced into the Latin Church after the Protestant Reformation (and following the Protestant example), so I have some difficulty describing pews as a "latinization" -- but it definitely comes from the West, so it is a "westernization", more properly described ,I think.

"Rather, a thousand years of pre-schism Church unity or "oneness" is long enough for the East and West to afford one to "inculturate" the other, and vice versa."

The problem is that it distorts our worship substantially, and so it's not a neutral thing.

Brendan

The line between East and West isn�t always that strong and there does tend to be borrowing back and forth.

When I was on a lengthy assignment in Cyprus I worshipped in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Limassol. It had a type of folding chair pew that I saw in many of the Orthodox parishes in that island country. They were attached to form the standard rows and were rather cramped. The liturgies were wonderful and the churches full. I was surprised to find that the Orthodox Churches in Cyprus keep the feast days of All Saints and All Souls on November 1 & 2 and that it was on their official liturgical calendar. They celebrated it with a parade and it seemed to almost be a national holiday. Probably a custom that came via the Italo-Greeks.

Closer to home, there are tons of Orthodox parishes in Pennsylvania that use kneelers. Some of the OCA and most of the Johnstown Diocesan parishes hold the same Greek Catholic custom of kneeling that many of our parishes still retain (yes, even on Sunday). Numerous OCA parishes still kneel during The Lord�s Prayer (but I�ve never heard how this custom came about).

When I was living in Poland(in Krakow to be exact} I went to the Orthodox church on Szpitalna St, from time to time and the people though they did not have pews knelt during the singing of the Our Father. The priest was a Bylo-Russian, I think

Kneeling is fairy common in the Orthodox world, in both Romania and Georgia I have seen people kneel at services (albeit this was on weekdays, it still seems likely that at least some of these folks would also kneel at a Sunday liturgy, regardless of the injunctions issued by the Council of Nicea).

Brendan

Many of the older parishes in PA, OH, and NJ in the OCA have pews and kneelers but you will find the majority of the new OCA parishes without them especially in the expanding Diocese of the West under Bishop +Tikhon and NO Kneelers!!! :rolleyes:

"injunction" ?

Canon XX
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-23.htm#TopOfPage

The language seems squishy soft, and is qualified with a motivating clause (like our 2nd amendment).
I think that we can all agree that the motivating clause "... that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere" is obsolete.

And here's an essay by an Orthodox priest on kneeling:
http://members.aol.com/johnd3/ONE/ResponseKneel0795.html

djs

djs --

I don't want to start a drawn-out discussion on this, but suffice to say that most Orthodox interpret Nicea 20 as an injunction against kneeling on Sundays, and no sharp distinction is drawn between "prayer" and "worship" for this purpose (and in fact the contrary interpretation offered in the linked article seems very strained indeed, as if the Fathers at Nicea intended to regulate private prayer so as to ensure uniformity in private prayer rather than public common prayer, aka, worship -- thank goodness we are not as clericalist in Orthodoxy). Local customs do vary, and the practice on weekdays differs from the practice on Sundays.

Brendan

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Did not our Lord and Savior talk about the Publican who stood in the Temple and prayed while the Publican came into the Temple and fell on his knees in prayer.....

Which one did God hear???

just curious...

mark

Mark --

Noone's against kneeling in prayer, it simply is an issue of Nicea 20.

Brendan

Brendan,

I agree that some of the semantical arguments seem strained. I wonder if anyone who knows Greek can comment on the discussed difference between "kneeling" and "standing on one's knees"?

But I like very much his ideas, which stress ministering to the community - to underscore humility, and reverence. In the US, we know little of the former, and live, moreover, in a culture, that, while Christian, largely denies the Real Presence (and does not kneel). So the teaching is good, IMO, provided that it does not amount to a violation of the Canon. Since local customs do vary, then is it fair to say that while largely interpreted as an "injunction" within Orthodoxy, it is not perceived as particularly weighty?

djs

No, No, that was not "Publican" and "Publican". It was "Pharisee" and "Republican". St. Dilbert, where are you when we need you.



Dan

"But I like very much his ideas, which stress ministering to the community - to underscore humility, and reverence."

I think that reverence is found in other areas of the Orthodox divine service, and standing is a form of reverence as well (it can get pretty tiring, as you know). I do believe that kneeling is important in the context of the Latin rite, and I think that kneeling can be appropriate in the context of private prayer as well.

"In the US, we know little of the former, and live, moreover, in a culture, that, while Christian, largely denies the Real Presence (and does not kneel)."

Again, I don't think there are sizable numbers of practicing Orthodox who deny the real presence. I think that's a Catholic problem, and I think that the Catholic Church should do what it thinks is needed to change that -- and kneeling is an important part of that in the context of the Latin tradition.

"Since local customs do vary, then is it fair to say that while largely interpreted as an "injunction" within Orthodoxy, it is not perceived as particularly weighty?"

It's not up there with some other ones, of course, but in any case Orthodoxy handles canons differently than Catholicism does. I don't think anyone is going to be fined or excommunicated for kneeling at Sunday liturgy, but it's a question of how best to show reverence in the Orthodox tradition. There are ways other than kneeling. For example, there is the half-metany, which really involves a deep bow from the waist and touching the ground with one's hand -- that's very reverential and is done by Orthodox at several points of the liturgy. Then there's venerating icons, which of course is inherently reverential. I think that there are ways to express that kind of physical reverence (including standing) in the context of the Orthodox tradition that do not involve kneeling on Sundays, and my own preference would be to plumb these more deeply rather than switching to kneeling on Sundays.

Of course, during Lent we do a great deal of kneeling and prostrating as well. -- again, a part of our tradition. Should the Latins also be doing full prostrations? I don't think it's a part of their tradition, really.

Brendan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brendan:
[QB

>>>I think that reverence is found in other areas of the Orthodox divine service, and standing is a form of reverence as well (it can get pretty tiring, as you know). I do believe that kneeling is important in the context of the Latin rite, and I think that kneeling can be appropriate in the context of private prayer as well.>>>

This is a critical point, to which I would only add the oft-forgotten matter of the interpretation of Sunday as being both the first day (of the new creation) and the eighth day (that stands outside of time). Nobody seems to object much to the Byzantine practice of standing throughout the liturgy from Pascha through Ascension. However, they usually misinterpret this as meaning that there is a prohibition on kneeling during that period. In fact, it means what it says--that we stand, exclusively, during the Paschal season. We do not sit, we do not kneel. We are in the presence of the Risen Lord.

What is missed in all this is that EVERY Sunday is Pascha. On every Sunday, we stand to greet the Risen Lord. "This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it". As one Melkite priest of my acquaintence is wont to say, "When you kneel on Sunday, you deny the Resurrection"--and he says it with such fervor that nice Ruthenian 7th graders whom I regularly take to his parish turn very pale, and usually stop kneeling.

I really am not a stickler for uniformity of posture at liturgy--so many metanias, so many bows, nobody move unless directed--it's not for us. But standing on Sundays goes beyond mere posture, it's part of the mystagogical symbolism of the Divine Liturgy itself, and those who kneel are not, in my opinion, entirely aware of the significance of their action. The Eucharistic Liturgy, especially on Sunday, is a great feast, the mystical supper, the wedding banquet. Kneeling is a posture of mourning and penitence. Just as Christ rebuked those who berated the Disciples for not fasting by saying, "Who can fast when the Bridegroom is among them?", so it is with kneeling on Sundays: how can one combine two diametrically opposite sentiments, the joy of Pascha and the sadness of our sinfulness, in a single moment encoded in the posture we assume at liturgy? Those who kneel on Sundays are either not aware of the symbolism and the dichotomy, or they have an egocentric liturgical outlook that thinks of liturgy in terms of "what do I get out of it"--sometimes I call it "Quality time for me 'n' Jesus". Taft calls it "narcissism", and he's right. Liturgy isn't, in the first instance about us and our preferences, but about returning to God that which is His, and in manifesting through the work of the People of God the Kingdom of God in this world. Liturgy is thus a holistic matrix of words, music, movements, postures, furninshing, vestments, and fragrances which combine to accomplish that goal.

Brendan:


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply this at all. Rather, that we live in a culture of Protestantism where the Real Presence is officially denied.


Nor should anyone be scandalized by it, deem it categorically wrong or "second-class" practice - as has been stated on this forum in previous threads on the subject.


I agree completely. And this plumbing will be done best with a patient respect for the parish community.

djs

The Canons forbid kneeling on Sundays because it is the day honoring the Ressurection. The Canons do not forbid kneeling all the time -

Canons of the Church regarding kneeling -

I. Nice A.D. 325

Canon XX:� Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day in the days of Pentecost. therefore, to the intent� that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the Holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

(Ancient epitome of Canon XX:� On the Lord's Day and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling)

Quinisext� A.D.� 692

[Note: Caps are mine]

Canon XC:� We have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honor of Christ's Resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays.� Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance� we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays (according to the prevailing custom) no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for compline, AGAIN WITH BENDED KNEES WE OFFER OUR PRAYERS TO THE LORD. � For taking the night after the Sabbath, which was the forerunner of our Lord's Ressurection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit of Hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire� day and night we celebrate the Ressurection.

(Ancient epitome of Canon XC:� From the evening entrance of the Sabbath until the evening entrance of the Lord's day there must be no kneeling)


OrthoMan

�
�

Dear Orthoman:

So what is the force of these cnaons? What significance do they have within Orthodoxy, in particular in the US, where it can be gleaned from the internet that kneeling on Sundays is not an uncommon practice?

Here is an interesting explanation form St. Luke the Evangelist (OCA) parish homepage:

"With regards to kneeling, Church history and Orthodox tradition teach that at the beginning of Christianity, everyone participated in the Divine Liturgy daily, not just on Sundays. Since they knelt during the daily Liturgies, they did not kneel on Sundays. The First Ecumenical Council in 325 AD decreed that Sunday is the great day dedicated to the Resurrection of Our Lord, and Christians should pray standing and not kneeling. Over the centuries, as Orthodox Christians could not attend daily Divine Liturgies, the general practice was for participants to kneel at least during the consecration of the Holy Gifts, when the choir sings, "We praise You..." and during the Lord's Prayer. The Church especially prohibits kneeling from Easter to Pentecost, since this is a season of great joy and happiness."

djs

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OrthoMan:
[QB]T
Canons of the Church regarding kneeling -


The Canons can be applied with Economia by the local bishop for good reason

[QUOTE]Originally posted by djs:

>>>Sorry, I didn't mean to imply this at all. Rather, that we live in a culture of Protestantism where the Real Presence is officially denied. <<<

But what has kneeling got to do with the "real presence" (and while we're at it, what OTHER kind of presence can there be)?

StuartK:

I'm way behind on your posts, which I find thoughtful and instructive.

First, I think we can agree form your later post that the Canon per se is not decisive, but that some variation its application can be expected. In the BC chuch in America kneeling on Sunday is proscribed in Van Nuys, while no such directive has been given in Pittsburgh. This variation is, apparently, entirely orthodox. I get irked by ritual narcs - whether Latin, Orthodox, or our very own - who want to rail about every deviation from some imagined gold-standard of ritual purity. Especially when I perceive a disrespect for that the past generation in our church of martyrs and heroic immigrants. That's just my thing, which I try to keep out of control.

At the same time, I take your point about this being a more serious matter: "...standing on Sundays goes beyond mere posture, it's part of the mystagogical symbolism of the Divine Liturgy itself...". This point is especially interesting because of the inherently hybridized situation of Eastern Christians in American, western culture.

For example, you remark that "Kneeling is a posture of mourning and penitence." In America?
I don't see mourners kneeling much, and penitence is a real novel idea here, because of joint predominance of secularism and the Protestant ethos of "once forgiven always forgiven". I think that in the US kneeling is a posture of reverent adoration. Among the bulk of US Christians (not us), it is a posture at liturgy that divides those who believe in the Real Presence from those who regard the Eucharist as entirely symbolic (the other kind of presence (you do accept 0 as a number, don't you?) ).

These ideas are certainly disputable, but if accepted for the sake of argument they raise an interesting question: do our practices require counter-inculturation (not a bad idea), or do our practices require adaptation to serve the flock within their broader culture? Would counter-inculturation mean the isolation and quasi-ghettoization of our Magyar milleium? It's easy to see that different shepherds may come to different conclusions on this point. And this has been, IMO, the real dilemma of the BC church in America since the 1950's.

"EVERY Sunday is Pascha"
"The Eucharistic Liturgy, especially on Sunday, is a great feast, the mystical supper, the wedding banquet."
"Those who kneel on Sundays are either not aware of the symbolism and the dichotomy ..."

If "Sunday" were "Voskresenije" this thoroughly inculturated symbolism would be clear and the corresponding practice autonomic. But the symbols are not inculturated. And if the symbols are not understood as such, then the symbols are are not being presented. No one who kneels out of reverence on a Sunday in an Eastern church - Orthodox or Catholic - means to insult the Resurrection, and therefore they are not insulting the Resurrection. (It is Pharisaic ritualism to suggest otherwise.) By missing this symbolism are we missing something of our rite? In my opinion, absolutely! (I don't know if it is possible to really get it without going back to village life or mono-cultural city life) But then we return to the dilemma of counter-inculturalism or adaptation, for which I see no easy answer.

"...or they have an egocentric liturgical outlook that thinks of liturgy in terms of 'what do I get out of it' ... Liturgy isn't, in the first instance about us and our preferences, ..."

Certainly. I don't want to be put in that category, even though I am a "stiff-necked" Ruthenian. My preference is only for an appreciation of the fact that sincere God-loving and God-beloved people may see these things differently.

"As a general rule, kneelers cause kneeling, and when they aren't present, most people don't kneel."

What to do then on weekdays?

djs

djs,

"What to do then on weekdays?"

We kneel on the floor. It's clean.

Dan lauffer

Dear djs,

One problem I have with any discussion of something like kneeling is that it can quickly become a talk about "rules influencing behaviour" rather than about pre-existing behaviour bending the rules.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada is made of of converts from the Greek Catholic Church (90% I believe).

These were used to the Latin practice of kneeling twice during the Liturgy, even on Sundays.

The Met. Ilarion Ohienko didn't "fight it" but, instead, ordered that the kneeling be done at the Great Entrance and then during the Canon, but never at Communion.

They still do this and believe it is an "Orthodox" tradition.

Just my two cents' worth.

Alex

Alex:

As far as I can tell, here in America, local variations on Sunday kneeling, coupled heated discussion about their propriety - this is the "Orthodox" tradition. And this tradition we have restored.

djs

Dear djs,

Yup, you got that right, Big Guy!

Our old parish priest got us to stand on Sundays by removing the kneelers.

He told us that if we wanted to kneel, we had to kneel in the Eastern way, on the bare, wooden floor.

Standing can be so, well, spiritual, you know!

Alex

And then there are the "ritually hyper-correct" who won't ever kneel in a Byzantine Catholic church, since they think it's "Greek Catholic" and thus "beneath them" to kneel. I'm glad you and your parishioners aren't like that, Dan.

Dear Lemko,

I wonder if the icon of St Seraphim of Sarov kneeling on a rock in the forest scandalizes the ritually hyper-corrent, the "more Orthodox than the Orthodox?"

What do they call the Kneeling Prayers on Pentecost Sunday?

Alex

As I understand you guys do them on Pentecost Sunday evening, and thus technically Monday, in order to avoid kneeling on a Sunday, I wouldn't call them "Kneeling Prayers on Pentecost Sunday" at all.

But we Syrians do them during Holy Qurbana on Sunday morning. So :p