www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Doesn't Israel have enough heartache already?

A temptation to homosexual sin is no different from a temptation to be a hypocrite. These temptations can be occasion for theosis if we submit them to God or for sin if we pridefully act upon them.

I humbly confess that while I've never submitted to any homosexual sinful behavior I have on occasion submitted to a temptation to be a hypocrite. Whenever I have I have repented in great seriousness. All sinners must do the same...without parades.

CDL

Yup. And Cinderella is a true story.

For everyone who believes that there is not an organized attack on decency and morals involved in and a strong motivator for the pro-homosexual movement ... wake up and smell the coffee.

The purpose behind these vulgar displays is to corrupt our thinking. To define deviency down to a point where society will accept every ill and every form of evil as "normal" or a case of "individual freedom" no matter the harm that it causes to the participants themselves or to others.

The Evil One, the Master of Lies is behind this. This is a demonic attack on moral decency. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. This is not an altruistic fight against a moral wrong. This is a battle to condemn the souls of the world to Hell.

Carole,

I completely agree.

CDL

We will have more moral authority upon which to base our condemnation of homosexual acts as sin when we speak out against other sins with the same vigor with which we condemn the homosexuals. Right now, there are people living in homosexual relationships who were brought up in the Church (I know some of them personally) and have turned away from the Church and will probably never return because they believe-and I think rightly so-that those who call themselves Christians and condemn homosexuality while ignoring a whole host of other sins (including sexual sins that are heterosexual in nature) are hypocrites. As my mother once said, "It's easy to stand and condemn sins like abortion and homosexuality, but what about sins like gossip?" Now I'm not suggesting that gossip is as serious as abortion or sexual sins, but my mother's point was that we are all sinners and that all sin (regardless of the hierachies of sin we create) is offensive to God. Let us also remember the words of Christ himself when confronted by those who had taken a women in the act of adultery, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7 RSV) In the Gospels, Christ's harshest words are not towards those who have committed the more scandalous sins such as adultery and extorting money, like the tax collectors. Rather, he is most harsh towards those religious leaders who were comfortable with their own righteousness. Of course, the adulterers prostitutes, tax collectors, and the like were told to sin no more-something those who would defend homosexuality overlook when they try to use the fact that Christ condemned the scribes and Pharisees, while associating with "tax gatherers and sinners." So I'm not arguing that those who are homosexual are right in their desire to have their sexual sins legitmated-perhaps those homosexuals who are smug and confident about their own righteousness stand condemned with the scribes and Pharisees. Let's not also be guilty of making presumptions about our own righteousness and ultimately find ourselves guilty of hypocrisy.
In peace,
Ryan

Gossip not only IS, more often than not, at least as sinful as adultery if not more so - but BEGINS with malice, where adultery is rarely more, as serious as it is, than misplaced affection mixed with lust.

There is a tendency to view the Commandments as being listed in order of gravity.......but the Eighth Commandment against false judgment and false witness And false attribution carries a gravity every bit as severe as that forbidding adultery.

Every bit.

Ryan,

Yep. I keep hearing this accusation that the Church someplace or other does not condemn other sins. Perhaps you've seen that. I have not. Could you give some concrete examples, without gossiping, of Churches that don't condemn other sins at all but do condemn homosexual practice?

CDL

CDL,
It is unfortunate that in some places, individual parishes rarely, if ever, speak out against any sins at all. My problem is not so much that I think we are guilty of condemning homosexuality while ignoring other sins, though I do think that does happen in some places. Rather, what disturbs me is that there are those, including some who post on The Byzantine Forum, who condemn homosexuality with a degree of vitriol and hatred that goes far beyond condemnations I hear of any other sin. One concrete example has occurred on this very thread where some are saying that the killing of civilians and the destruction of Beruit are less serious than a parade of homosexuals demanding rights that could be dealt with simply by ignoring it. Try telling the surviving family members and friends of those civilians who have been killed that a parade of homosexuals is more sinful and destructive than the killings of their loved ones. Or ask yourself how you would feel about whether a parade, sinful though it might be, would compare to the killing of a member of your family.

Athanasius,

I'm not so sure that parades advocating destruction of decency isn't as bad as actually being in a war. I happily condemn both. I believe that the gay rights parades in Chicago are very destructive to civilized life in our city.

On the other hand, we did servive the gay games and as I suggested I guess Jerusalem will as well.

I love people. I want to help people find healing and redemption from their sinful inclinations. I don't openly condemn any individual for their frailties but I do despise the homosexual perversions in a gay rights parade or the so called gay olympics. These people have an agenda and it has nothing to do with helping people become more holy.

I would, as someone else has suggested, be just as opposed to parades in favor of adultery with people running around in public having simulated intercourse with people who aren't their spouses. I would be quite as opposed to people parading through the streets firing off their guns calling out "death to ....anyone".

BTW many people run away from Church because they don't wish to lead holy lives. Some even lead very unholy lives and attend Church. In either case they need our prayers, and if they openly promote their sinful behavior as if it were righteous, I will rise up and try to dissuade them.

CDL

All sin is sin.

Heterosexuals sin greatly.

Homosexuals sin greatly.

What they both have in common is that in our society, God has been replaced by an idol.

That idol is the idol of non-marital, gratuitous, promiscuous, and obessive sex.

Let's parade national independence, religious saints, and holiday celebrations..that which is good, wholesome, and inspiring to a greater good.

Let's not parade simulated and deviant heterosexual sexual acts in a gross bastardization of what Lenten carnivale is *supposed* to be, and let's not parade homosexual sins in parades displaying equally deviant acts and furthermore call it 'pride'.

(yes, I think that the carnivale parades of Brazil and New Orleans and some Caribbean islands are also a disgrace)

Pride is a sin, especially when it is describing another sin.

I would not want to see a parade called 'fornicators' pride, masturbators' pride, adulterers' pride, paedophiles' pride, or sodomites' pride' either.

I say that this country and much of the world needs to get over their obsession with sex and that we need to put it into its right context, as God intended it and as the eternal Church teaches it.

Alice

Bravo Alice! Bravo!

Dear Starokatolyk you said:

I say:

We have to differentiate maliscious slander from simple discussions of others. There are times when one must state opinions in order to protect and defend someone that might be unjustly condemned. As an example, if you know that someone dislikes another and what they are saying about that person is false, then one has an obligation to give their opinion of that person...or of what one knows of that person.

You said:
I say:

Actually, adultery is deceit towards one's spouse, and therefore quite harmful.

You said:
I say:

I couldn't agree with you more. All commandments are equal in my eyes although 'coveting' as we know it here, is not the same as it is in other cultures. I have known people where the greatest achievement is not in what they desire and have gained, but in the satisfaction that they have had in being able to take something away from another person and thereby hurting them...strange as it may seem to our 'Western' minds.

All Ten Commandments are either harmful to others, or to oneself in some way or another.

Zenovia

Zenovia:

Something like the person who said to me "Do unto others BEFORE THEY DO UNTO YOU."

He couldn't understand why I didn't see the humor in it. :rolleyes:

BOB

I don't know what possible unfair discrimination homosexuals in Israel are facing ??? See below


ISRAEL
LAWS: 1. Has no sodomy laws, the age of sexual consent is 16 for all. Also
exempts consensual homosexual sex involving youths aged 14 and 15
from prosecution, as long as the age difference between the partners
is no more than three years.
2. Allows homosexuals in its military.
3. Has a national gay rights law that bans some anti-gay discrimination
, including employment.
4. Allows foreign partners of its homosexual citizenry to receive
residency permits.
5. The Civil Service Commission extends spousal benefits and pensions
to the partners of homosexual employees.
6. The city of Tel Aviv recognizes unmarried couples, including gays
and lesbians, as family units and grants them discounts for municipal
services. Under the bylaw, unmarried couples qualify for the same
discounts on day care and the use of swimming pools, sports facilities,
and other city-sponsored activities that married couples enjoy.
7. The Israeli State Attorney's Office has extended the spousal exemption
from property-transfer taxes to same-sex couples.
8. Israel's attorney general has granted legal recognition to same-sex
couples in financial and other business matters. Attorney General Meni
Mazuz said the couples will be treated the same as common-law spouses,
recognizing them as legal units for tax, real estate, and financial
purposes. Mazuz made his decision by refusing to appeal a district court
ruling in an inheritance case that recognized the legality of a same-sex
union, his office said in a statement. Mazuz did differentiate, however,
between recognizing same-sex unions for financial and practical purposes,
as he did, and changing the law to officially sanction the unions, which
would be a matter for parliament, according to the statement.
NOTE: 1. Etai Pinkas (Meretz Party), member of the Tel Aviv City Council is
openly gay.
2. Yigal Bibi, Rabbi Haim Meir Druckman, Rabbi Avraham Ravitz, Michael
Eitan, and Zevulun Orlev are anti-gay members of Parliament
(Knesset).
3. Uzi Even (Meretz Party) is an openly gay member of Parliament (Knesset).
4. Saar-Ran Netanel (Meretz Party), member of the Jerusalem City Council is
openly gay.
COURT:1. The High Court ruled that the partner of a gay employee at EL AL,
Israel`s national airline, is entitled to free airline tickets just
as the spouse of any heterosexual employee is.
2. The High Court recognized a lesbian as the adoptive mother of the
four-year-old son of her same-sex partner, and ordered the Interior
Ministry to register the adoption.
3. An Israeli family court on 3-17-02 turned down an application from a
lesbian couple to have their partnership union declared legal. The
couple was united in a civil ceremony in Germany. The women wanted
the court to recognize their partnership as a civil marriage, under
Israeli law. The court said that since the women are not recognized
as a family under Israeli law, the court is not authorized to rule
on their case. A government lawyer who was asked by the court to give
a legal opinion on the case on behalf of the Israeli government said
that the state objected to granting the request.
4. On 11-14-04 the Nazareth District Court ruled that same-sex couples
have the same rights as married couples in inheritance rights. This
ruling overturned a Family Court ruling that an elderly man from
Kiryat Shmona was not entitled to spousal rights. The man had sought
the estate of his late partner, with whom he lived for several decades.
The Nazareth judges ruled that the term "man and woman" as spelled out
in Israel's inheritance law also includes same sex couples. Judges
Nissim Maman and Gabriela Levy, who issued the majority opinion, based
their decision on a loose interpretation of the term "partner" as
defined in other court rulings, such as those dealing with issues
related to employment benefits, and thus applied the interpretation to
the inheritance law. The acting president of the Nazareth District Court,
Menachem Ben-David, issued the minority opinion, arguing that the legal
text should not be interpreted "contrary to the lingual significance." A
government spokesperson said the ruling will be appealed.
5. In December 2004 the Tel Aviv District Court ruled that the government
cannot deport the Colombian partner of a gay Israeli man. The 32-year-old
Colombian entered Israel on a visitors visa which has long expired and
the Interior Ministry had ordered him deported. His partner is an Israeli
citizen and a soldier in the Israeli Defense Forces. The couple filed an
emergency petition with the Tel Aviv District Court. The men were
represented by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. Judge Uzi
Vogelman ruled that the government had acted illegally in attempting to
deport the man. In 1999 High Court ruling established that the ministry
could not deport foreign nationals married to Israeli citizens. Vogelman's
decision extends that to apply to common-law marriages, including same-sex
couples.
6. On 1-10-05 the Supreme Court ruled that a lesbian couple is able to
legally adopt each other's children. During the past 15 years that Tal and
Avital Yaros-Hak have lived together, they have had a total of three
children. The couple petitioned the Tel Aviv Family Court for the right to
formally adopt each other's children in 1997, but the request was rejected
because Israel's adoption law had no provisions for same-sex couples. The
couple appealed. While they failed to get a favorable ruling in the Tel
Aviv District Court, the Supreme Court accepted the case. Citing Article 25
of the Adoption Law, the Yaros-Haks argued that the law allows for "special
circumstances" for adoption when it is for the good of the child, even if the
child's parents are still alive. The only condition is that the person
seeking to adopt be single. The couple argued that since the state does not
recognize same-sex marriage, they are single by law. The Yaros-Haks added
that adoption was in the best interest of the children if one of their
natural mothers should die. The Israel Supreme Court agreed, ruling 7-2 in
favor of the couple.

On the other side of the coin, isn't it nice to know, that you can go to prison in Israel for up to 5 years for trying to convert a Jew to Christianity. The law was signed into effect on Christmas Day 1977.

Lawrence,

I hope you understand, I'm not defending the Atheistic government of Israel. I cannot fathom such things. I'm simply saying that this group of people deserve to not be attacked incessantly.

CDL

I think that's the topic of your other thread. I only posted that to respond to claims that homosexuals must march for civil rights in Israel.