www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Germans say they've found Luther's toilet

Dear djs,

As for the THESES thingy, that's the first sensible thing I've heard you say ever since you've started commenting on the moral world of Senator John Kerry!

And I'm going to resist the temptation to make any comparison between the type of crap that Catholics have had to put up with from BOTH men until now . . .

(Smile, djs, you've won an award here, after all)


Alex

Dear Friends,

Hopefully, I haven't offended anyone here.

If I have, well, I still cling to the above hope . . .

Oops! I think I went over my five-post a day limit - more than once.

Sorry, Mr. Administrator!

Alex

Alex, "Kyiv" must be a Canadian thing, since I haven't seen it spelled that way anywhere except this Forum. But it sure gets your goat. Now about that Patriarch. It seems to me that your best bet on that would be to get a Slav Pope.....

Dear Charles,

Actually, the UGCC is quite united in referring to His Beatitude Lubomyr as "Patriarch" (Our Basilian bishop ONLY refers to him that way during the DL).

One doesn't "get" a Patriarch in the Eastern Church.

A Particular Church comes to the realization of its own patriarchal status and then simply affirms.

It sometimes takes centuries for other Churches to recognize that Church's patriarchal status, as obtained for a number of EO Patriarchates.

As for the Pope, the Ruthenians run to him for their consecrations at every turn, so he is, in every way, it would seem, your patriarch both universally and in Particular terms as well.

As for "Kyiv," the American protocol info that Neil the Irish Melkite provided showed that the U.S. government recognizes "Kyiv" as the proper Ukrainian spelling and "Kiev" as the Russian spelling, even though the U.S. government is reticent about using the Ukrainian spelling.

But why would it be that way?

Isn't the U.S. a country that is for democracy and freedom for all peoples?

Unless it can show that it supports a return to Soviet Russian domination in Eastern Europe, why does it support Russophilism in countries that have broken away from the soviet empire?

For the U.S. or any American to continue to use colonial terminology for any country that is recognized as a free state by the world is for the U.S. to crap on its own political philosophy.

Unless "freedom" is only something to be perfectly experienced by the U.S.

And unless the familiar U.S. "freedom" theme (in Iraq, for example) is simply a clever ideological cover for the imperialist expansion of its own interests?

Or so think others . . .

I'm not scolding you, Charles, please don't think that.

I guess I've had it up to here with what is clearly a double-standard on this forum with respect to the Ruthenians on the one hand and the Ukies on the other.

Respect and courtesy should always obtain between people of different backgrounds and that is surely the rule here in many things.

But it seems that, for this forum at least, it is politically correct to uphold Ruthenian and U.S. perspectives, (including a solid Russophile orientation justified by Byzantine ritual closeness and East-West ecumenism) while, at the same time, it's O.K. not to extend the same courtesies to the Ukrainians.

That's just not on, it's not acceptable.

I agree that any attack on Ruthenians or the Orthodox etc. is wrong and I think I've always been among the first to say so.

But as someone of Ukrainian background (and I have several other cultural backgrounds as well), I'm made to feel like a second-class citizen on this forum for a number of reasons.

Perhaps those reasons aren't important to others, but to tell me and other Ukrainian Catholics, as I'm told regularly here, that the spelling of "Kiev" is not important, that our patriarchate is not important - no one outside our Church and community has the right to tell us what is or is not important to us.

No one has the right to tell the Ruthenians that either. As a case in point, I remember the quite angry response to the discourse of one member here expressed by the Administrator and others - the same people who tell me and others what we, as Ukrainian Catholics, should consider important or not important.

That is a double standard, plain and simple. It is, once again, not on and not acceptable.

I'm not directing this to you, Charles, but I'm just taking this opportunity to think out loud.

It's late and we both should be getting to bed.

Thank you for the opportunity to get some things off my chest and to articulate them.

Finally, finally, I've come to realize a few things about this forum that have bothered me for a long while.

And it took a thread on Martin Luther's toilet to finally flush things out in this respect . . .

Perhaps Martin Luther wasn't such a bad fellow after all!

He at least didn't believe in double standards and stood up for what he held dear.

I'll try to follow his example. I'm sure he'd want this forum to keep his toiletries.

Alex

Alex, spellings don't change in the United States by government mandate. When the style books and dictionaries change, then spellings change. That may happen eventually with Kiev/Kyiv. By the way, I am not Ruthenian and many of the Byzantines in my part of the country are not either. We belong to a church with Ruthenian origins, but are busy building an American church which will still retain some Ruthenian characteristics. That Patriarch thing is something I really don't understand. I suspect the reasons you don't have one are political rather than religious. My Patriarch is the Pope who has authority over my Metropolitan Archbishop. That's fine with me. I don't know Rome's criteria for awarding Patriarchates and suspect that whole area is a bit murky, at best.

Dear Alex,

Nice to hear from you.

But, I don't recall commenting on Kerry's morality. And it is not my point at all.

I was provoked by breath-taking post - months ago, but my blood is still boiling - in which someone who saw Kerry bumper stickers throughout his parish parking lot wondered: what kind of a church is this?

I am posting for the same reason that Lazarus of today's gospel went to the doorstep of the rich man who lacked compassion, charity, and love. It was the reason given by Martin Luther King for the march on Washington that he organized. When asked he said: we are like Lazarus and we must go sit on the doorstep of the rich man, to do what we can to help save his soul.

Probably more than half of the Catholics in the US will vote for Kerry. It need not, and therefore - for the love of the Body of Christ - cannot be assumed that it is because they are working to support the Evil One.

ps
A very good discussion of this problem has been going on among Cathoic law professors here:
http://www.mirrorofjustice.com/

Here's a quote from one post:

Dear Charles,

You're right and I do tend to overreact to these things.

And fyi, I also overreacted when the Ruthenian identity was under attack here.

Good for you - building up an American EC Church!

Perhaps all our churches will be able to overcome the ethnic blocks that prevent that from happening.

That doesn't mean that spelling of place-names in Ukraine won't be important to people like me though . . .

Please tell djs that I'm sorry for going after Kerry too . . . it's a good thing he never overreacts to things . . .

Alex

Charles:

This thread seems to be going down the drain but I do wonder if Luther, in his ferocity to nail his 95 feces to the Wittenberg's Church door(understandably after a welcome relief), some, or most, of it splattered back on his face?

Amado

Dear Amado,

Now, now . . .

What was it St Clement Hofbauer of the Redemptorists said of the Germans?

"They became Protestants (Lutherans) so they could live as Christians."

A number of Lutheran theologians have become Orthodox in the past, including Jaroslav Pelikan.

I've also personally assisted a number of Lutheran pastors with resources in their journey toward Orthodoxy.

At least they seem to be all going in the right direction, don't you think?

One Protestant pastor who became a Catholic once told me he had learned that Luther returned to the Catholic Church before his death, he visited the Bishop of Salzburg - this is what started his own journey to Catholicism.

In addition, the High Church Lutherans are as Catholic as all get out and are working from within Lutheranism to reunite with Rome (such as in Sweden).

They venerate the Saints and also privately invoke Martin Luther . . .

A number of the popes of Luther's era had reputations that "smelled" as well.

Didn't some of them issue a lot of "bull?"

Alex

Dear Charles,

Martin Luther, in his "discussions" with the "Wholly" Roman Church, would often defend the Eastern Church and said that, if one had to compare them, the Eastern Church was by far the "better half" of Christendom.

Which is where that term first originated . . .

Alex

Dear Friends,

Here is a 96th thesis:

That the Orthodox Churches of the East would find little to argue with Martin Luther about in his 95 theses concerning the main issue touched upon by them and having to do with indulgences.

and that the only disagreement that the Orthodox Church of the EAst would have with Luther in his 95 theses is Luther's constant expressions of respect for the Pope of Rome.

Alex

I don't disagree with Luther's criticism of the selling of indulgences. But I understand he had already firmed up his beliefs in justification by faith alone, etc. before he posted to the door. The source I read indicated that Luther might have used the 95 theses as a vehicle thru which to spread his theological dissent. I have also heard that Luther died wanting to return to the Catholic Church. That's not really in character for Luther. He would have died wanting the Catholic Church to accept his errors, admit that it was the Church that was wrong, and welcome him back with open arms. Of course, it could not do that. I think many Germans became Protestants because of Luther's teachings that the religion of the prince should be the religion of the people. The German princes were not saints, but did want to be free of the Emperor, so they jumped at Luther's teachings as a way to get out from under his authority. I tend to look at Luther as one of the best examples of overweaning pride in the history of the Church. The man simply would not accept Church authority. I am glad the high-church Lutherans want to reunite with Rome. But some modern day Lutherans I know have told me that Luther's life and example have become an embarrasment to them.

Dear Charles,

Certainly!

I think the point is that while Luther was no St Boniface, he was reacting to some real problems in the Western Church at the time - one of them being indulgences.

St Thomas More was likewise a reformer, but a Catholic reformer, who sought to renew the Church from within without causing schism etc.

Lutherans I've met on their way to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches have told me the example of the young Luther, with his devotion to the Mother of God, his early piety etc. is what helped them see the contrast with the later Lutherans and contemporary North American Lutheranism - enough to want them to go Rome or Orthodoxy.

I'm currently in contact with seven Lutheran PASTORS who, after being pastors for years, now wish to join either the Orthodox or EC Churches!

Luther was anti-Jewish, to be sure.

But there are those who consider St John Chrysostom and other Church fathers to have been as well. There is apparently a committee in Israel whose sole purpose is to prevent the canonization of Pope Pius XII.

All I'm saying is that I respect the High Church Lutherans and if somehow my path crossed with a Lutheran seeking to go Eastwards - I would NEVER say anything untoward about his Lutheran heritage, including Martin Luther.

I think we should leave all that to God.

Alex

The Lutherans in this area who convert typically become RCs. I wouldn't do anything to discourage them, but the ones that I know have a pretty accurate view of Luther. In my area, there is one Greek Orthodox Church, one OCA church that was formed by ex-Episcopalians, and one Old-Catholic Church that calls itself Antiochian Catholic. There are 6 RC churches, and of course, one Byzantine Mission. The remainer of the 300 or so churches in the greater Knoxville area are Protestant. The total Catholic population of East TN hovers slightly below 5%. So you see, there aren't that many places for former Lutherans to go.

My brothers and sisters,

Not to be an old fogey or a killjoy (although I've been labeled one or the other often enough to think there may be truth in them) but, if a Lutheran with an interest in the East (but with no intention of converting) were to register here around now, he or she might find reason to doubt the charitable and tolerant nature of this forum community - aspects of it on which we pride ourselves and that are not infrequently remarked upon by those who visit here.

Many years,

Neil