www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pagan traditions of Christianity

Dear Friends,

Following on a great suggestion from Father Mark, this thread is about pagan traditions that have come to be Christianized and accepted within Christian culture.

Please feel free to share what you've read and heard!

Alex

Dear Friends,

O.K., O.K., one at a time!

Many of our western Christmas traditions are derived from pagan Celtic times.

Evergreens that remained green in winter were seen by the Druids as very spiritually strong things, since they did not die as did other plants.

They also believed that evil spirits could come in to our homes via windows, chimneys and doors - whence the tradition to decorate these with greenery during Christmas.

For starters . . .

Alex

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

FOR ALEX: CHRISTOS ROZDAJETSJA!
SLAVITE JEHO!

Hey Alex,

I have one word for you PYSANKY!

How about Easter Bunny???

Blessings to you and yours for a Blessed and Happy New Year!!!

mark

Thanks, Medved!

Right back at y'a, Big Guy!

Ah, the joys of the Old Calendar . . .

(Is that pagan too?)

Alex

Hello:

I think the Easter Bunny is hardly Christian, so it becomes irrelevant if it has a Pagan origin or not.

The Old Calendar is A.K.A. the Julian Calentar because of the Pagan Roman Politician who instituted it.

In Mexico, serveral elements of the native cultures were "Christianized", therefore, what now are expressions of popular Christian piety would have their roots in Paganism. These would include sacred dance, the seashells used to decorate religious images and statues, the use of the native copal instead of the Old-World incense, etc.

Many other elements in Christian rituals have Pagan counterparts, like the use of water, oil, salt and fire for ritual purposes.

Shalom,
Memo.

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Memo wrote:"...I think the Easter Bunny is hardly Christian, so it becomes irrelevant if it has a Pagan origin or not..."

Well, in this country at least, the Easter Bunny and Easter Eggs and candy are a MAJOR part of the Easter celebration. NONE of this has any Christian significance. The Easter Bunny and the Easter eggs are deeply rooted in pagan tradition and Springtime fertility rites.

JMHO...

mark

Dear Memo,

The seashells, yes - aren't they connected to the cult of St James of Compostela? What are their pagan roots?

Also, I love the Mexican rites for All Souls' Day - could you enlighten us concerning them?

Alex

Dear Friends,

Just a note to say that while "pagan" today means "polytheistic" or believing in something other than the true God, giving in to passionate hedonism etc., it is derived from the Latin word meaning "village."

When Christianity was being spread throughout Europe and elsewhere, and certainly after it became the Roman Empire's official religion, it was rooted in the urban areas. Monasticism was out in the desert, of course, but the villages were where paganism still flourished, especially among the lesser educated etc.

Also, in the Acts of the Apostles, the Church already was divided along the lines of the Jewish Christians and the Hellenic Christians.

The Jewish Christians continued to practice many aspects of Judaism, as obtains in the Ethiopian Church and other Oriental Churches today.

So the first non-Christian culture to be Christianized and reinterpreted along Christian lines was, of course, Jewish.

Alex

{QUOTE]In Mexico, serveral elements of the native cultures were "Christianized", therefore, what now are expressions of popular Christian piety would have their roots in Paganism. [/QUOTE]

As you said, some of the pagan rituals that were present in the pre-christian civilization of Mexico had a christian counterpart and were given a christian meaning.

Sacred dance could be the equivalent of the sacred chant and music in the European culture. Vocal chant as known in Europe was in fact unexistent in the pre-christian cultures of Mexico, and the dances had a similar role in the rituals. In spite of their efforts catholic missionaries could not erradicate those pagan dances, so they decided to accepted them as long as they was not used in the liturgy, but for the celebration of christian fests outside the liturgical services (and with a christian meaning). There are many writings from the monks that are useful to explain how their attitude was. In TV you'll probably see masses when the dancers perform during the liturgical celebration. This could be a modern innovation. The dancers had always been a traditional part of the christian fests in many Mexican towns, but it was done during the processions and the vigils, never inside the Church and during the liturgial celebration (and this is still the case of the Cathedral in Mexico City, the celebration of Holy Week is very interesting)

As far as I know Alex, seashells [ scallop shells specifically ] were the sign used by any Pilgrim on his journey not just for the pigrimage to Compostela.

dunno about pagan roots though

Mexicans commemorate the "day of the deads" today 2 Nov, and 1 Nov (All saints day according to the old Catholic Calendar) the tradition states that it's the day of the dead children.
More than a religious practice, it is very much a cultural tradition. These days, in the small towns people put their "ofrendas" (offerings), an altar with picture of the one who is commemorated, some religious images, yellow flowers (called Zempazuchitl), and traditional food, and traditional sweets such as sugar skulls and chocolate skulls. In the small towns people are still supersticious and it's believed that the dead relatives will come to have a meal.
The tradition is now encouraged by the authorities in schools and universities, each classroom makes its own "ofrenda" and contests are performed.
Halloween things have also penetrated and some have got mixed with the deads day, so you'll find little boys in the streets door to door asking for their "calaverita" (their little sugar skull)

Ancient man, Indians, etc ate the animals they killed. yes for sustainance but also in the belief that they would gain some of the speed of a deer, strength of the dead animal etc. The idea of Communion where we eat the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ we also strive to become more godlike.

There was a great course in graduate school on Pagan and Christians. Have to search in my garage to find my notes. There were numerous examples. Plus an interesting book. But it was oh so many years ago that i don't remember all the comparsions and the book's author.

Hello:

About Seashells. In Native Mexican culture, these are a symbol of divinity. Their use in sacred art to decorate niches for images exactly parallels the Eastern halo shining from the heads of the saints.

About the "day of the dead", well, its celebration is coincidental with the Catholic celebration of All Souls.

But just as with the Easter Bunny, its local "cultural" content is hardly Christian at all.

Of course, some of the things Mexicans do for All Souls can be given some Christian meaning, but not to the whole idea behind the celebration.

Shalom,
Memo.

I�d like to share a few things.

The �zempazuchitl� flower that Remie wrote about are marigolds. They�re know by similar names in different parts of the country (sempuasuchil, etc.). In parts of northern Mexico (where a part of my family is from) they�re known as �sampuales�. I knew an old lady who simply called them �flor de muerto� or �flower of the dead�.

Marigold are native to Mexico and they�ve been associated with the dead since pre-columbian times. Sometimes trails of marigold petals are laid from the street to the home altar, to lead the souls of departed loveds ones back home for the celebration.

The altars and graves are laid with food and drink, usually the favorite stuff of the deceased. If they really liked orange soda, they�re might be bottles of orange soda for instance. There is the traditional �pan de muerto�, or �bread of the dead� which are loaves decorated with skulls and bones, sometimes a large loaf with a full figure upon it. Nov. 1 ("dia de los angelitos") is for dead children and they often get toys and candy on their altars, or at least �piloncillo� (small sugar loaf).

I have to disagree with that. Christmas and Roman Saturnalia coincide too, you know. Sometimes we think that symbols can only mean a=b or c=d when in reality it's often the case that a=b,c,d, and sometimes e. Just like easter eggs despite their origin have meaning (the tomb and the resurrection) even if they don't scream "Christ is Risen!" at first glance.

Of course it depends on region, town, and social class but in my experience the holiday is suffused with (Latin) Catholicism. All the crucifixes and holy images on graves and altars, the prayers,novenas, rosaries, and other devotions for the dead, the references to "animas benditas" and "animas en pena". The masses held in the "campo santo" (graveyard). Beliefs and attitudes about the dead themsemlves. The afterlife people refer to are not the pre-columbian realms of the dead (Mictlan, Tlalocan, etc.) but Catholic heaven, hell, and purgatory (and limbo, where that belief is still held). Of course in recent times maybe that has shifted because of the influence of mass media and other things.

In recent years I've been building "ofrendas" in my family's home (my mother already has a home altar year 'round). I center it around an heirloom crucifix and a portrait of my paternal grandparents (passed away). One year I stepped out and when I came back music was playing and I saw my father dancing before the altar. "What are you doing, Papa?", I said. He answered," I'm thinking about my Mama".

Oh yeah but :
"...Mexican Catholic was used to a Church that respected his/her cultural identity, including religious music and art."

I agree with Manuel, the kind of ceremonies of the 2 Nov are most of the time with a christian meaning, and many also coincide with other similar ceremonies that exist in European christian cultures. It's important to say that the "ofrendas" were quite encouraged after the 70's, by the former Mexican regime (in spite of its opposition to religion) in order to fight the "halloween influences". They tried to encourage the preservation of the tradition encouraging the "ofrenda contests" in schools, but depriving the ceremony of its christian content (eliminating the christian symbols, crosses, icons, etc) and secularizing it through the glorification of the pre-columbian elements themselves.