www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pagan traditions of Christianity

Hello:

Fighting one Pagan influence with another is of little use.

It is OK to reject the Halloween spooks, but why should we replace them with an altar to the dead, where we place their favorite food so they can "eat" it during the one night of the year they come back to the realm of the living?

Of course we can give some of these practices Christian meanings. That is not the question.

The question is: Have we?

Shalom,
Memo.

Yes I understand perfectly, I'm totally against syncretism, I think that it is more honest to be completely Pagan, than to be half Christian and half Pagan, but I see the altar of the deads just as a tradition, and that's the way people see it, I doubt they really believe that the deads come to eat at night.

But if you we see the altar of the deads as something which is hardly christian, why aren't the "danzantes", "liturgical dancings", invocation of the "spirits of the air" and all those things rejected?.

Hello:

Dances are not rejected because they are explicitly encouraged in the Christian Scriptures.

That many liturgical traditions in the Church lost the expression of sacred dance is sad, but it is not enough to reject the efforts of re-discover it.

The invocation of the "spirits of the air", I don't know. I am not familiar with this. I'd need to know what exactly are we talking about.

If it is an invocation of a Pagan deity, it might be wrong. If it is the use of a ritual form inherited from our Pagan days, but given a Christian meaning, then it might not be wrong.

While I am usually very on guard against syncretism, I define syncretism very strictly. There are things that some might consider syncretism, which I would consider a legitimate inculturization of the Gospel.

What St. Paul did, using the "Unknown God" of the Greeks as a starting point to preach the Gospel is a brilliant example of how the person of faith must discover the manifestations of Christ, even in the Pre-Christian cultures, and respect those manifestations, and build a truly Christian development on those foundations.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

You have spoken wisely, Teacher!

Alex

Dear Memo,

To answer you post at the top of the page: I don't think it's fighting one pagan influence with another, it's retaining the customs of our ancestors. And I believe these practices were given Christian meaning in the ways I pointed out earlier, or else they might not have survived or even been tolerated. As far as offering food, its like laying flowers before Our Lady. Does she really come down and "smell" them?

Of course it doesn't mean these customs can't lose their meaning but in my observation it remains for many people, including my family.Maybe in your experience it has been different.When I have built altars at home I always pray.Building it is an act of devotion in itself. When I spent the holiday in Mexico with my relatives there was prayer mixed with the feasting at the graveyard and we all stopped for Mass.

When I've made altars as part of a "cultural exhibition" I've also prayed quietly for the people commemorated on each altar. Even in that secular setting the religious element on the altars is unmistakable and I would always mention the religous side of the holiday when explaining it to visitors.

I really feel you make some good points in this thread. If anything I think the Days of the Dead illustrates your point about the Church having respected our traditions and about legitimate inculturation. On one of my last visits to Mexico I saw pictures of churches that decorate the altars with marigolds and food and I think even candy skulls for the holiday. In my area we now have an anual Mass for All Soul's Day for the Mexican community and everyone is invited to bring food and pictures of the departed which are blessed and placed before the altar for the mass. The priest's homilie always uses the traditions to illustrate the Church's teachings on the dead and the Communion of Saints. After Mass everyone gathers afterward to enjoy the food

By the way, did you know there were a few traditions of religous dancing in Europe?

One that survives is "Los Seises": a group of young boys with castanets that dance before the High Altar of the Seville Cathedral on Corpus Christi and some other holidays.

Isn't there also a village in Greece where people on a certain feast day ( I think it's St. George's) dance on hot coals while they carry holy images? Can someone confirm this?

Dear Angela, about the seashells:

there is an image of the Christ Child called "el Santo Nino de Atocha" that's highly venerated in Spain and Latin America. Like a good little pilgrim he wears a shell on his hat.

It also reminds me of a Mexican Christmas hymn that describes Our Lady as the shell that gave birth to Our Lord, the "Pearl of the (Blessed) Sacrament".

Dear Friends,

What I find interesting is the rich cultural resources drawn by our respective national Christian traditions from pre-Christian sources.

And yet there are those who object when Christian missions in Asia, for instance, follow the same pattern of inculturation of the Gospel.

This occurs, perhaps, because we tend to forget our own pagan roots and/or tend to see what are really ancient pagan traditions as integrally Christian ones.

When Christians were being persecuted in Japan in the 19th century, one way the Japanese police had to ferret out Christians is to place a Cross on the ground and then get people to line up and go by spitting on it.

Those who refused were arrested as Christians.

The Japanese police got these Crosses from the necks of Christians.

Soon the Christians got wise . . .

They began producing Crosses with a Buddha image on them.

The Buddha is a generic figure for the "Enlightened One" and so Christ was depicted in this way.

Since the police were Buddhists, they could not use such Crosses in rituals of blasphemy since they would not allow anyone to spit on a Buddha image.

Such Crosses with Christ depicted as a Buddha are on display at the museum on the Hill of the Holy Martyrs in Japan that honours 26 Franciscans crucified there.

Alex

Hello:

This implies that you think that customs are valuable on their own right.

I do not subscribe to such idea. Social customs, just like individual habits, can be good or bad.

In order to keep a custom, I need a stronger motivation that merely because it is old.

And before anyone jumps, the same thing goes for new practices.

Regarding traditions and customs, I think there are two fundamentally wrong approaches:

1. That everything old is good.

and

2. That everything new is better.

Age is morally neutral.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Yes, precisely.

Which traditions survive the years and which are adopted anew is part of the process of life that a community experiences.

I did my doctorate on an analysis of which cultural traditions the children of immigrants kept from their parents and which they discarded and why.

The results surprised me.

But one can never predict in advance the pattern of cultural survival.

Sometimes old traditions continue despite, or in spite of, pressures to modernize etc.

My own view is that cultural maximalism will be coming back because of the sameness of contemporary life in society, its anonymity and cosmopolitan boredom.

Alex

Dear Memo,
you did not quote my entire answer which included this: I certainly don't think age is the main or only reason for keeping a custom and I didn't mean to imply that.

If the customs and symbols associated with the Day of the Dead were truly incompatible with Catholicism they would never have survived. Spanish missionaries suppressed other pre-columian customs that did not "fit in" with the "new religion".Certainly these celebrations have always been public, never underground, and as I described the Church is making a more conscious use of these customs and symbols (ofrendas, marigolds, etc.) in her public liturgies for All Soul's Day.

As I've written these traditions have been intertwined with our Catholic religion in Mexico for the longest time and I've given examples. I don't know how much more explicitly Christian you would like them to be in order to be acceptable. Christmas and Easter customs are also open to the same criticism. May I ask, is there something about Day of the Dead that makes you personally uncomfortable?

In the end I really do agree with everything you have written. I think we share the same point of view.I just feel that the traditions surrounding the Mexican Day of the Dead support the points you make. I think you would surprise a lot of Mexican grandmothers, praying for their dead at these altars,if you told them these customs did not have any meaning. Maybe your experience of the holiday has been different than mine?

I would love it if people from Slavic and other backgrounds would share more of their customs on this thread.

Peace,
Manuel.

Dear Manuel,

Now I don't know what to be excited about more, Mardi Gras, or the Mexican day of the dead?

Alex

Dear Alex,

Be excited about both!!

It's "The Great Catholic Both/And". Humanity AND Divinity; Passion AND Resurrection; EAST AND WEST; Mardi Gras AND Day of the Dead.

Did you you know Mexicans have King's Cake too? We call it "rosca de reyes". Whover finds the baby has to throw a party on the day of "la Candelaria" (Candlemass).

Do the Byzantines have an equivelent to Mardi Gras? Please let me know, any excuse to party

Memo:

About syncretism, there's a very interesting narrative by Gutierre Tibon, on his trip to Chiapas and his visits to the churches. Two events caught my atention.

First of all, he described that at the side of each image of a saint, there was always a smaller figure (a little saint). He, intrigued by these funny images, asked one of the men who were praying, about the little figures, and the man answered him "They are their wives, every saint has his wife." (Then Gutierre explains that this is due to a dualistic concept which was very common in the pre-christian religions of the Americam continent.)

Then, Gutierre Tibon, in another temple, saw some images of the Crucified Christ, and of Christ Resurrected, and told the people: "hey they're quite beauteful". The people answered, "oh yeah, it's St John and St. Sebastian". People there, call the image of the crucified Christ "St. Sebastian", and Christ Resurected, "St. John".

About "liturgical dancing" I never meant that they were forbidden by the Scripture, but that kind of dances were never part of the liturgy in the tradition of the Church. It's true that there are some simplified or symbolic dances in various rites (someone once quoted the Dance of Issaiah, in the Eastern Orthodox marriage ceremony, or the Copts, the Ethiopian Rite, etc.)but never in the Latin Church, to which most Latin American christians belong (and in our western-european culture, dancing is often related to entertainment and diversions that have few things to do with sacredness).

Dear Manuel,

O.K. I'm excited!!

The West begins Lent on Ash Wednesday and so celebrates "Carnivale" ("Carne" or "Meat" and "Vale" or "Good-bye") on the Sunday, Monday and Tuesday before.

The English call it "Shrove Tuesday" for they went to Confession on that day and were "shriven" of their sins.

The East, however, due to a different calculation of the days of Lent/Great Fast, begin the first day of Lent on the Monday following the Sunday of Forgiveness.

The Saturday and the week before is therefore appropriate to have what we call in Ukrainian "Zapusty" or parties that call the end of the "good times" "Laissez les bon temps roulez!"

But we just never attained to the high plateau of achievement that is the Western Mardi Gras!

I was so taken by it all and by New Orleans where I first experienced it that I still where my beads to which is attached my work I.D. that I must wear always . . .

It's a great conversation piece and I've also decorated my office here with Mardi Gras things from New Orleans.

My mouse-pad is also from there and has images of New Orelans and Mardi Gras . . . I want to go back there so badly . . .sniff!

Alex

Dear Remie,

Please don't be offended but . . .LOOSEN UP A BIT WILL YOU?

You'll give Orthodoxy a bad name otherwise . . .

You need to go out and have a good time, especially before Lent.

Alex

Funny you should mention Mardi Gras, Alex.

This week is my high school's "Spirit Week" before Homecoming on Saturday and yesterday was Mardi Gras Day. We all wore Mardi Gras beads with Confederate battle flags on them.

For Lent (and I believe even outside of Lent now) my mother is going to make us fast occassionally. This is a big step, because we're Methodists, but my church actually instructed and encouraged those who wish to fast. I need to figure out my Methodist fast plan...

ChristTeen287