www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall church closure

Our church was closed on July 14, amost two weeks ago. While we were told about the closure two months before, we were never told the date.
They sent locksmiths a couble of days before our last service and changed the locks. While we were told there is a lack of priests , we count 33 priests in administration and some 60 other priests in the diocese. Couldn't they find one priest who would be willing to say the Liturgy with us or,at least, couldn't they allow us to maintain the church as a shrine?
We feel so cast out. If it is necessary to close a church, couldn't it be done in a different manner?

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

While it is never an easy matter - to consider the closing of a parish or church, these things always seem to be complicated all the more, by the way in which the closings take place, as you mention here.

There are many considerations to take into account. Can you tell us a bit more about your parish's situation? How many people were attending the Divine Liturgy? Were there any other services? What were some of the activities the parish sponsored - both social and fund-raising? Was the community able to support the services of a priest? Was there a mortgage or other financial obligations involved and if so, were they able to be met? Are there other Byzantine parishes within reasonable distance for the people to travel to?

These are just some of the factors that I would take into account, if it was presented to me, to make a decision to close or keep a parish open. For the sake of the enlightenment of everyone here, many who may not know the particulars of your church, please tell us more about the situation at St. Jude's.

While there may have been many difficulties stemming from the "concilliar" or "parish board" form of government that our parishes used in the distant past and are by some Orthodox today (sobornopravnist), it also had its positive points, which certainly would be employed in a situation like that of your parish, if the parishioners felt that they were indeed able to keep the parish open and support the priest. The support of the pastor is naturally, a primary consideration in keeping a church functioning. If the priest cannot be given the standard salary of the eparchy, (which he is entitled to in order to simply make ends meet in today's world, not to become independently wealthy), then the parish cannot meet its commitments. If however, a parish can show that it is financially soluble, and willing to support both the pastor and the other obligations of the church, then I see no reason why a priest cannot continue to serve there.

For the sake of discussion here, I'd be interested in the details of your parish's situation.

Fr. Joe

We had a small parish of 30. I've been a member for 5 years.Since we took over our books , three years ago, under my leadership we paid all our bills and were in the black. We tried a couble fund raisers a year and had a 20% growth in the last three years. Since this is an area that has room to grow, it is experiencing the construction of many new homes etc. The potential for growth is astronomical, however it's hard to keep new members when a priest is not interested in his parishioners.We have no known mortgage.The parishioners paid a $180,000 mortgage in five years about 15 years ago when the church was built.
We have a preist, who built the church wanting to come back and help us on his free time but Bishop Pataki was resentful that he even asked to serve us again.

There are also young children in the parish. While we had no first communions in several years ,we boast of 5 communions and 5 confirmations in the last two years.We have a young altar boy, who is now very hurt that he can no longer serve with father and was locked out of his church.The nearest Byzantine church is 45 minutes away.
The parishioners took care of everthing for father, salary,pension, medical insurance.. How much of an insult is it to have the locks changed behind our back?

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

I find it distasteful that there are so many priests in administrative duties and not tending the flock.

I find it extremely disturbing that when I called a byzantine church to inquire about Presantified Liturgy during Holy Week the phone call was NOT returned. On was on a business trip that is why I did not know when the liturgy was held in this church.

I am getting very disheartened about how the clergy are treating the people.

I am seeing many incidences where some of the clergy care more about Passaic than they do about their flock.

If they keep this up there will be no Passaci epachy.

Just my 3 cents worth:

If you are looking at the Passaic website list of clergy in 'administration' please note that many of these priests have several parishes as well as that extra assignment or two on the list.

I'm not defending the bishop's decision in any way, but there aren't many candidates banging down the door of our seminary despite the Vocations Icon 'solution' of 2000.

Deacons are used in their own parishes as novelties rather than ordained clergy who could be out in mission churches such as your own. (No offense to deacons on this site, but you could be taken a little more seriously by the Eparchy).

There are areas in PA and NJ with several of our churches located very close to each other. Rather than consolidate these and shake up some old-timers we are squashing potential growth in 'new' locations maybe just because they are 'new'.

The median age of our clergy, judging from those retreat pictures has to be around 60. What does that tell us about the Eparchy's status in 15 or 20 years?

We need new leadership with vision. Holding on to the old and familiar until it dies while socking away clergy retirement $$ is not in my eyes a leader with much faith, unless he knows its already too late.

Why are there not enough priests? Could part of it be the way Bishop Pataki treats his Clergy ? The Bishop has cut us off from the priest that
founded our parish. I understand that he will
be punished if he speaks to us. He is the only priest that tried to offer us comfort and prayers. Our own Pastor tried to chastise us for questioning the bishop's decision.
I think that if there was better management and scheduling perhaps no priest would have to run miles to say liturgy for four churches.
Although the priest who founded our church, is 75 , he offered to say a 12:00 liturgy at our church but the Bishop told him no.
There are still altar boys , if they were encourged by their Parish priest, perhaps several of them would become priests

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

One of the worst things about this whole situation is the way in which our supposed spiritual leaders have totally ignored us. At the first hint of closure, (which was given to us as a "casual" slip of the tongue from the pulpit during the sermon)we questioned our travelling pastor. He had no time to give us any answers. He had to be back in Matawan. When we wrote to the bishop we received no reply. When we called, no one returned our calls. When we wrote to the new archbishop and even to Rome, no one had the courtesy to respond.But when a parishioner called the eparchy and said he was from a different religion interested in renting the building his call was returned within 15 minutes!

Dear Lucy,

I guess you are the Parish that Mike C. wrote about a week ago. As I have posted before, I am losing a lot of respect for the Bishops. I am beginning to not understand why we care about Apostolic Succession, when their sucessors are such turkeys. Maybe that's why they like wearing funny hats.

I've inserted part of the other thread below, to keep the info together. I don't know your area very well, but are there any Melkite or Ukrainian Parishes nearby? But I guess if the Bishop won't let you talk to your former pastor, he won't let you talk to the Ukies either. Maybe there is an OCA parish nearby? Sounds like this "shepherd" doesn't deserve a flock.


Have a Blessed Day !!!

Just don't expect blessings via this "Bishop"

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck
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Mike C.
posted 07-22-2002 10:58 AM
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While watching the news on TV out of Philadelphia they reported that one of our parishes is closed. It is St.Jude's in Burlington County, in S. New Jersey. They showed parishioners sitting outside the church singing hymns. One of the parishioners said that the locks were changed.
I thought our buildings belonged to us; the trustees of the parish? How can the diocese close the building?

The reported said that Bishop Pitaki was not available for comment. I guess that our diocese doesn't have the personnel to keep the parish open. I think Bishop Andrew should have visited the parish himself to tell the parishioners. Its a shame that this sort of thing has to make the news. What do you say?


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Lance
posted 07-22-2002 12:21 PM
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Mike,
You state:"I thought our buildings belonged to us; the trustees of the parish? How can the diocese close the building?"

Your thought was mistaken, and in fact this is what alot of the trouble in the 1930's was over. According to Catholic Canon Law the bishop owns all diocesan property, including parish churches and rectories and has every right to close them. Civil courts recognize this, as well. Not long ago the Latin Diocese of Pittsburgh closed a number of parishes and many brought legal action, every case was decided in favor of the bishop.

. . . I think it is unfair that missions have to beg for priests while, for example, Pittsburgh has several Churches that could have/should have been combined long ago because of declining population.

In Christ,
Lance


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theodore perkoski

posted 07-23-2002 12:44 PM
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There is also a rumor that the Byzantine Catholic church in the West Palm Beach Fl area (Holy Apostles) is going to close and the Bishop is going to sell the Property
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Iwas the person leading the pray vigil, We did't say the church belong to us. We know that the bishop has the legal deed. When people go down in the ternches and dig their own foundation , they should have an invested interest in the property. They put their everything into makeing that church, I continued to take care of everthin
that had to be done.I did't do it alone . I had and Eboard to work with me and of coarse all the
the beautiful loving parishners. One Lovely man of 92, built the altar, the preparation table ,curved the crosses in the pews,and much more. It counts for nothing. We are just pushed aside,To our dismay.

Lucy,

Do you have 30 families or 30 people?
Its sad that the Eparchy has not worked with you or at least explained things in person. Its extremely insensitive.

Nicky's Baba

It was thirty people not counting the children.
there were six or seven children.

Lucy,
You are in pain and rightfully so. Your group worked hard to build a church and your 'shepherd' doesn't have the decency to show his face. So typical.

I think if you placed just one more phone call, it might be effective. Call the bishop and tell him you've just won the Powerball Lottery for 75 million dollars. Tell him you'd like to meet him ASAP, because you don't have any idea what to do with the money.

I wonder if you were 30 multi-millionaires if you would still have a place to worship?

Another poster had a good idea. Together find a welcoming church and join (even if it means that 'O' word), and then support them with your whole heart. I'm sure any church would be thrilled to have 30 persons show up at their doorstep.

Bernadette

Dear LucyK,

If I were you, I'd organize a weekly Vespers service at your home. This service can be conducted without a priest. Bp Andrew will be gone soon and then you can start over. That way you can keep the community together.

Or you could all convert en masse to Orthodoxy (which is what I would do) and then send a photo of all of you being received into Orthodoxy to Bp Andrew, Rome, etc. with a nice little caption, "at least someone loved us."

Perhaps the parish did need to be closed. But others are right, in my opinion--if it must be done, the bishop should visit the people, first.

In Christ,

anastasios

Did any one here of a new Bishopfor Passaic..? Is any one named yet?

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Lucy....

My sources on the "grapevine" tell me that the Holy Father refused to accept Bishop Andrew's resignation/retirement. He may still be with us for a while longer....

mark

Wow,
I thought that it was the other way around ,that
he wanted to extend his bishop status and the pope said no.Which way was it any more comments on this.?
Today , I called the bishops office foe the ukranian Byzantine , I was advise to write Archbishop Schlott and inform him of our Plite and hpw it was handeled by Bishop Pataki,
.Does any one know his policies on church closures? I was also ,I was advised you just can't change rites.
Whatr would it take to get a church excepted as a shrine?

Yes, there are men beating the door down to be ordained in the Byzantine Priesthood, and are single too. Its typical. The clergy aren't answering the door. Yes, I believe if I had won $1b in the lottery and told our Bishop I wanted to be a priest, I would be accepted right away.

i HEARD JUST THE OPPOSITE THAT tHE pOPE EXCEPTED HIS RETIREMENT AND THERE WOULD BE A NEW BISHOP IN SEPT, hAS ANY ONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT A NEW bISHOP? PLEASE COMMENT.

As for Bishop Andrew, I do not think a bishop formally submits his retirment until the time of his birthday.

I believe that Bishop Andrew's birth day is not until the end of August, beginning of September, so the Vatican has done nothing as of yet as they have not received the bishop's letter yet.

Lucy,

I'm sorry about the situation you are going through. Unfortunately, Bishop Pataki has every right to close a church - with or without prior notice. We don't have to like it, and certainly it could have been done with more regard for common courtesy, but he's the bishop, and he's in charge. (Believe me, I am not applauding the act or the manner in which you have been treated.)


As for changing rites - why? You can attend ANY Catholic church - for years & years & years if need be, without doing a canonical change of ritual church. If the Ukrainians or the Melkites in town are welcoming, GO! No need to "officially" switch, and it's not something that happens quickly anyway. Keep your soul fed, and pray while you wait for the dust to settle - or the other shoe to drop.

Best,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Well, I wanted to try to get another Bishop acquire our church from the Bishop. But it rent it of course with our finacial help.This little church has a lot of loving spirit in it. If you weent inside yiu feel it to.
I spoke to a freind Jackie . , who said to me that she can't handle it. Maybe the Bishop does havethe power to close or do what he wants with a church. That does't make it alright to crush so many people by doing it in this manner. Unfortunently we were disillussioned. A Bishop is supposed to represent Christ on earth. So that would make him a good and caring person. Wouldn't you think so?

Well, I wanted to try to get another Bishop acquire our church from the Bishop. Buy it rent it of course with our finacial help.This little church has a lot of loving spirit in it. If you weent inside yiu feel it to.
I spoke to a freind Jackie . , who said to me that she can't handle it. Maybe the Bishop does havethe power to close or do what he wants with a church. That does't make it alright to crush so many people by doing it in this manner. Unfortunently we were disillussioned. A Bishop is supposed to represent Christ on earth. So that would make him a good and caring person. Wouldn't you think so?

Lucy,
Your 'church' has a lot of spirit because it is made up of 30+ God-Loving Christians. It is difficult for all of you that your building has been taken for financial/personnel reasons, but a loss of a building does not mean a loss of that spirit that keeps you together.

You can still have vespers or pray in your homes together as a group. You can still socialize together and meet as you did before you acquired a building. You can still reach out to others and spread the Gospel message.

Continue to pray together as a group, and attend Liturgy or Mass at another church together. Who knows what will happen after August? "The family that prays together stays together." Don't give up hope.

I don't know why a priest would be "forbidden" to pray with you in your homes. Ask him to join you. Maybe he might just answer to a higher God. With everything going on these days in the Church, celebrating Liturgy should not be a punishable crime!

Bernedette, Thank you very much for your lovelly reply .I will try to get people tpo gather inn our homes of course. ASre you the person who sent me personnel message?
I just hope the bishop doesn"t sell our chuch before the end of Aug. Some of the treasures in that church are donated by people who have passed away, Harry Alex. They are irreplaceble. I'm affraid they mean Nothing special to the Bishop.

I empathize totally with the trauma of a parish closure. I had that happen to us within a small mission parish the OCA in the Bulgarian archdiocese. Our closure was not initiated by our bishop, but more from problems within. We were not able to support a priest or services sufficiently. We were a new mission parish and not well established, and about your size at the time of our closure. However, a number of us had put heart and soul into our mission for a few years, and had baptisms, chrismations, conversions and other memorable events. It took me quite a while to recover from it. However, I realized after a time that sometimes it is extremely difficult to sustain a small parish and God nay not will it (not to say that I really know God's will in your situation). I am in the OCA, but a major mentor(priest) of mine went back to the Byzantine Catholic Church of his youth recently from the OCA. I was just at a retreat at a Byzantine Catholic monastery. It is my conviction that you and your fellow parishioners' faith can be nourished in either an Orthodox OR Byzantine Catholic church, and often the most important element ESPECIALLY FOR CHILDREN is healthy parish life. I believe parish life transcends consideration of Orthodox/Catholic. As ordinary laypersons, we are not responsible for the difficulties of Catholic/Orthodox churches with each other. I see from Yahoo maps that Holy Cross in Medford (OCA)is twelve minutes away from you. From the OCA website, it looks like a good place (although I do not know it personally). My fourteen your old boy (who was seven at the time) suffered from our parish closure. It is really important for the sake of the "little ones" as you mention, to go forward and not look back at things you have no control over. Too bad there was not sufficient discussion before your parish closed and that it was not done in a better manner. Best wishes to you, and I hope all of you can stay together from your old parish.

Your right about how things effect children. I took my seven year old granddaughter somewhere else last sunday. On the whey home she said to me, "Mommom ,I 'm not going to church with you any more. Thats not my church.
As for me, I can't move on yet, because I don't have closure. This is not Gods will, he put that little church in the middle of the pines for a
special reason.
Until I exhaust my resources, i won't have closure.

Rose,

I am kind of in shock that a Catholic bishop has the right to close a church - with or without prior notice or consultation.

I think this one of the great faults of the Catholic Church (though not a theological issue). Alot of territory exists between this unilaterialism and absolute congregationalism.

I think this related to the sexual abuse scandal the Catholic bishops must share a great deal of responsibility. Why the fear of consultation on their part? I have to say, I have not posted anything on this so far because I believed that more likely than not, while the closing was unfortunate, it was likely needed. You have convince me that graves abuses exist in the Catholic means of addressing these matters.

Ypu have a very sad situation in the Catholic Church.

Thank you Lucy (and yes, that was me :-).
I just wanted to add that I hope wherever you and your fellow parishioners are attending right now, you will try to go to the same church to maintain some sense of community. I would personally look into that OCA church referenced in an earlier post.
As for exhausting resources, I can only think that Time is one of them, and Prayer is the most important. The objects have sentimental value, but they really can all be replaced.

How did your mission get its name "St. Jude"? Isn't he the patron saint of hopeless causes?

Keep praying,
Bernadette

Thank you again Bernadett about your encougement. I thank everone for ther advice, I have gotten a lot of ideas from you.I will certainly try to pull the group together. There has been a lot of churches closed , lately. I heard in we have a churchin Hilltown Pa. We have St Nicholas in Trenton, Nj was already sold , St Michaels in Mass. A Church in Brooklawn <NY was sold suddenly

Because the Paint factory down the steet offered
good money for the property. Another church was sold for over a million dollars be cause of the large amount of property it had.

It may very will be the same problen our brother and sisters the Roman Catholic people had, when preists molested their children.Perhaps the situation would not have going on for as many years as it did,if parishners spoke up for what was right

Bernette, half our parishners are two old to start over. Whats ma painting that cost $1000 to have painted in the eighty's cost today..

Has anyone heard of the Catholic ORTHRODOX Church OF FRANCE. A VERY NICE PREIST APROACHED US THE SUNDAY WE HAD OUR PRAYER VIGIL IN FRONT OF
ST Judes.he offered us prayer and confort. His name was Fa. John

[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

Lucy: You mentioned people sending private messages to you. It is good to check them regularly. Sometimes we miss one or two. Have you checked them lately?

Fr. Joe

Today ,I drove by St Judes Mission an noticed the unkeep look. The Beautifull Azalea bushes are dying The weeds are growing , The hard work that Ted ,landscaping completed just last year looks
untended., uncared for. I don't know if the recent rain will bring some of it back. I wanted to stop and care for it but I know i'm not permitted

[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

Not that I haven't felt bad about this situation before, having kept up with this thread, but Lucy's last post is especially sad to hear for me, most especially that last line. It's a truly horrible situation...my prayers for you and your parish continue. Please take up the recommendations some have made of keeping the group together through praying together at home and stuff like that. God bless.

Lucy,
This sounds so difficult for you. I think if it helps you to 'stop and care for it' then just do it. I would probably do the same. It was a building that provided much for the people that belonged there for so many years.
Keep praying, and we will keep praying for you, too. :-(
Bernadette

I was thinking of faxing either Bishop Pataki or Fa, Basil , who closed the church a message of how bad the flowers and ground look and tell him it should be taking care of, either give permission to us take care it or send someone to take care of it.
I am truly up set this church belongs to the Lord and it shood not be disguarded like an old shoe. We were disguared the Chuech and grounds Should not be disguarded.

[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

Lucy: When checking for "private messages" from this forum, check under your profile listed as "my profile" on the top of the page. That is where they will come in. It is a bit different from regular e-mail. Hope this helps.

Fr. Joe