www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall church closure

Our church was closed on July 14, amost two weeks ago. While we were told about the closure two months before, we were never told the date.
They sent locksmiths a couble of days before our last service and changed the locks. While we were told there is a lack of priests , we count 33 priests in administration and some 60 other priests in the diocese. Couldn't they find one priest who would be willing to say the Liturgy with us or,at least, couldn't they allow us to maintain the church as a shrine?
We feel so cast out. If it is necessary to close a church, couldn't it be done in a different manner?

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

While it is never an easy matter - to consider the closing of a parish or church, these things always seem to be complicated all the more, by the way in which the closings take place, as you mention here.

There are many considerations to take into account. Can you tell us a bit more about your parish's situation? How many people were attending the Divine Liturgy? Were there any other services? What were some of the activities the parish sponsored - both social and fund-raising? Was the community able to support the services of a priest? Was there a mortgage or other financial obligations involved and if so, were they able to be met? Are there other Byzantine parishes within reasonable distance for the people to travel to?

These are just some of the factors that I would take into account, if it was presented to me, to make a decision to close or keep a parish open. For the sake of the enlightenment of everyone here, many who may not know the particulars of your church, please tell us more about the situation at St. Jude's.

While there may have been many difficulties stemming from the "concilliar" or "parish board" form of government that our parishes used in the distant past and are by some Orthodox today (sobornopravnist), it also had its positive points, which certainly would be employed in a situation like that of your parish, if the parishioners felt that they were indeed able to keep the parish open and support the priest. The support of the pastor is naturally, a primary consideration in keeping a church functioning. If the priest cannot be given the standard salary of the eparchy, (which he is entitled to in order to simply make ends meet in today's world, not to become independently wealthy), then the parish cannot meet its commitments. If however, a parish can show that it is financially soluble, and willing to support both the pastor and the other obligations of the church, then I see no reason why a priest cannot continue to serve there.

For the sake of discussion here, I'd be interested in the details of your parish's situation.

Fr. Joe

We had a small parish of 30. I've been a member for 5 years.Since we took over our books , three years ago, under my leadership we paid all our bills and were in the black. We tried a couble fund raisers a year and had a 20% growth in the last three years. Since this is an area that has room to grow, it is experiencing the construction of many new homes etc. The potential for growth is astronomical, however it's hard to keep new members when a priest is not interested in his parishioners.We have no known mortgage.The parishioners paid a $180,000 mortgage in five years about 15 years ago when the church was built.
We have a preist, who built the church wanting to come back and help us on his free time but Bishop Pataki was resentful that he even asked to serve us again.

There are also young children in the parish. While we had no first communions in several years ,we boast of 5 communions and 5 confirmations in the last two years.We have a young altar boy, who is now very hurt that he can no longer serve with father and was locked out of his church.The nearest Byzantine church is 45 minutes away.
The parishioners took care of everthing for father, salary,pension, medical insurance.. How much of an insult is it to have the locks changed behind our back?

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

I find it distasteful that there are so many priests in administrative duties and not tending the flock.

I find it extremely disturbing that when I called a byzantine church to inquire about Presantified Liturgy during Holy Week the phone call was NOT returned. On was on a business trip that is why I did not know when the liturgy was held in this church.

I am getting very disheartened about how the clergy are treating the people.

I am seeing many incidences where some of the clergy care more about Passaic than they do about their flock.

If they keep this up there will be no Passaci epachy.

Just my 3 cents worth:

If you are looking at the Passaic website list of clergy in 'administration' please note that many of these priests have several parishes as well as that extra assignment or two on the list.

I'm not defending the bishop's decision in any way, but there aren't many candidates banging down the door of our seminary despite the Vocations Icon 'solution' of 2000.

Deacons are used in their own parishes as novelties rather than ordained clergy who could be out in mission churches such as your own. (No offense to deacons on this site, but you could be taken a little more seriously by the Eparchy).

There are areas in PA and NJ with several of our churches located very close to each other. Rather than consolidate these and shake up some old-timers we are squashing potential growth in 'new' locations maybe just because they are 'new'.

The median age of our clergy, judging from those retreat pictures has to be around 60. What does that tell us about the Eparchy's status in 15 or 20 years?

We need new leadership with vision. Holding on to the old and familiar until it dies while socking away clergy retirement $$ is not in my eyes a leader with much faith, unless he knows its already too late.

Why are there not enough priests? Could part of it be the way Bishop Pataki treats his Clergy ? The Bishop has cut us off from the priest that
founded our parish. I understand that he will
be punished if he speaks to us. He is the only priest that tried to offer us comfort and prayers. Our own Pastor tried to chastise us for questioning the bishop's decision.
I think that if there was better management and scheduling perhaps no priest would have to run miles to say liturgy for four churches.
Although the priest who founded our church, is 75 , he offered to say a 12:00 liturgy at our church but the Bishop told him no.
There are still altar boys , if they were encourged by their Parish priest, perhaps several of them would become priests

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: LucyK ]

One of the worst things about this whole situation is the way in which our supposed spiritual leaders have totally ignored us. At the first hint of closure, (which was given to us as a "casual" slip of the tongue from the pulpit during the sermon)we questioned our travelling pastor. He had no time to give us any answers. He had to be back in Matawan. When we wrote to the bishop we received no reply. When we called, no one returned our calls. When we wrote to the new archbishop and even to Rome, no one had the courtesy to respond.But when a parishioner called the eparchy and said he was from a different religion interested in renting the building his call was returned within 15 minutes!

Dear Lucy,

I guess you are the Parish that Mike C. wrote about a week ago. As I have posted before, I am losing a lot of respect for the Bishops. I am beginning to not understand why we care about Apostolic Succession, when their sucessors are such turkeys. Maybe that's why they like wearing funny hats.

I've inserted part of the other thread below, to keep the info together. I don't know your area very well, but are there any Melkite or Ukrainian Parishes nearby? But I guess if the Bishop won't let you talk to your former pastor, he won't let you talk to the Ukies either. Maybe there is an OCA parish nearby? Sounds like this "shepherd" doesn't deserve a flock.


Have a Blessed Day !!!

Just don't expect blessings via this "Bishop"

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck
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Mike C.
posted 07-22-2002 10:58 AM
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While watching the news on TV out of Philadelphia they reported that one of our parishes is closed. It is St.Jude's in Burlington County, in S. New Jersey. They showed parishioners sitting outside the church singing hymns. One of the parishioners said that the locks were changed.
I thought our buildings belonged to us; the trustees of the parish? How can the diocese close the building?

The reported said that Bishop Pitaki was not available for comment. I guess that our diocese doesn't have the personnel to keep the parish open. I think Bishop Andrew should have visited the parish himself to tell the parishioners. Its a shame that this sort of thing has to make the news. What do you say?


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Lance
posted 07-22-2002 12:21 PM
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Mike,
You state:"I thought our buildings belonged to us; the trustees of the parish? How can the diocese close the building?"

Your thought was mistaken, and in fact this is what alot of the trouble in the 1930's was over. According to Catholic Canon Law the bishop owns all diocesan property, including parish churches and rectories and has every right to close them. Civil courts recognize this, as well. Not long ago the Latin Diocese of Pittsburgh closed a number of parishes and many brought legal action, every case was decided in favor of the bishop.

. . . I think it is unfair that missions have to beg for priests while, for example, Pittsburgh has several Churches that could have/should have been combined long ago because of declining population.

In Christ,
Lance


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theodore perkoski

posted 07-23-2002 12:44 PM
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There is also a rumor that the Byzantine Catholic church in the West Palm Beach Fl area (Holy Apostles) is going to close and the Bishop is going to sell the Property
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Iwas the person leading the pray vigil, We did't say the church belong to us. We know that the bishop has the legal deed. When people go down in the ternches and dig their own foundation , they should have an invested interest in the property. They put their everything into makeing that church, I continued to take care of everthin
that had to be done.I did't do it alone . I had and Eboard to work with me and of coarse all the
the beautiful loving parishners. One Lovely man of 92, built the altar, the preparation table ,curved the crosses in the pews,and much more. It counts for nothing. We are just pushed aside,To our dismay.

Lucy,

Do you have 30 families or 30 people?
Its sad that the Eparchy has not worked with you or at least explained things in person. Its extremely insensitive.

Nicky's Baba

It was thirty people not counting the children.
there were six or seven children.

Lucy,
You are in pain and rightfully so. Your group worked hard to build a church and your 'shepherd' doesn't have the decency to show his face. So typical.

I think if you placed just one more phone call, it might be effective. Call the bishop and tell him you've just won the Powerball Lottery for 75 million dollars. Tell him you'd like to meet him ASAP, because you don't have any idea what to do with the money.

I wonder if you were 30 multi-millionaires if you would still have a place to worship?

Another poster had a good idea. Together find a welcoming church and join (even if it means that 'O' word), and then support them with your whole heart. I'm sure any church would be thrilled to have 30 persons show up at their doorstep.

Bernadette

Dear LucyK,

If I were you, I'd organize a weekly Vespers service at your home. This service can be conducted without a priest. Bp Andrew will be gone soon and then you can start over. That way you can keep the community together.

Or you could all convert en masse to Orthodoxy (which is what I would do) and then send a photo of all of you being received into Orthodoxy to Bp Andrew, Rome, etc. with a nice little caption, "at least someone loved us."

Perhaps the parish did need to be closed. But others are right, in my opinion--if it must be done, the bishop should visit the people, first.

In Christ,

anastasios

Did any one here of a new Bishopfor Passaic..? Is any one named yet?

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Hi Lucy....

My sources on the "grapevine" tell me that the Holy Father refused to accept Bishop Andrew's resignation/retirement. He may still be with us for a while longer....

mark