www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Orthodox Emperor may be a reality soon!

Quen Isabella was part of the Plantaganet line, or so said Warren Carroll (I know, he isn't a popular person here) in his outstanding book.

There are present day descendants of that line living in Maryland, according to Wikipedia.

The American patriots fought the British Crown for a lot more reasons than just unfairly imposed taxes.

As for me, I want nothing to do with royalty. I don't like our own version of it here in the US, where certain families seem to get reelected perpetually.

The members of the House of Hapsburg are quietly proud that they are not in any sense blood-relatives of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha/"Windsor"/Battenburg family.

By the way, "interbreeding" is not a problem - what the poster presumably meant is inbreeding, which is a practice to be avoided (and which Catholic marriage law forbids). One of the problems with the European royal houses that lacked the Hapsburg scruples is that the inbreeding reinforced Victoria Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's recessive gene for hemophilia.

So "tu, felix Austria, nube" turns out to be true in several ways!

Fr. Serge

Thank you ! Well said !!!


I agree. Constitutional monarchies can work for some societies as a cultural, unifiying, figurehead role. Thailand, for example, or Britain. But absolute monarchies (or things close to absolutism)? No thanks ! I like my freedom.

By the way, I don't think that democracy (and republics) are pure and wonderful. There are plenty of problems with these forms of government. But, at least, they offer a much better means of protecting freedom and maintaining the rule of law. As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

And, as Zenovia correctly pointed out: "Democracy is only as good as the people within it."

-- John

I would just like to point out before judgement is passed on absolute monarchy, there is at least one actual absolute monarchy left in Europe, Vatican City State.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Vatican City State is indeed an absolute monarchy. Since it has very few citizens, there isn't much of an alternative, but there's no reason to think that the Sovereign (Benedict XVI) is looking for an alternative!

The odd part of it is that Vatican City State is also one of the very few elective monarchies - but almost none of the electors are citizens of Vatican City State or residents of Vatican City State. Curious.

Lichtenstein is also an approximately absolute monarchy, though there is some sort of assembly which meets at Vaduz when it pleases the Prince to summon it. Obviously the Prince is not the head of any religious body, but he does have citizens living in many parts of the world (citizenship in Lichtenstein has remarkable tax benefits), so I suppose that trying to gather even a simple majority of the voters would be a trifle difficult.

Foreign affars of the pincipality are handled through Switzerland (does that make Lichtensteiner yoiung men eligible for the Swiss Guards?).

I don't really know how the Sovereign Order of the Knights of Malta is governed, but since the territory of this vest-pocket country consists of one square block surrounded by Rome, I'm not inclined to worry about it! For those who may be unfamiliar with it, the independence of this one square block is recognized by various international bodies and the Sovereign Order maintains diplomatic relations with a significant number of other countries. They also issue passports which are internationally recognized - Several Heads of Catholic Royal Houses travel on such passports. The only problem is posed by the existence of some, ah, "alternate" organizations also using the name of the Kinghts of Malta but not enjoying the recognition of the Vatican or much of anybody else.

Fr. Serge

Wow! This appears to be a "fit" in light of the aforementioned prophecies.

Dn. Robert

Vive le Roi Chretien!

[Since I don't live in France I can say that with impunity!]

Fr. Serge

The Cardinal-Electors technically do not vote for a monarch, but for the Bishop of Rome, who by virtue of his position is the Sovereign of the Vatican City State.

Dear Father:

The Spanish Hapsburgs (Hasburgos) apparently did not follow the so-called scruples of their Austrian relatives. Los Reyes Hasburgos were afflicted with mandibular prognathism, a disfigurement of the jaw caused by the high degree of inbreeding among the Hapsburgs. This deformity is known as the "Hapsburg jaw" or "Hapsburg lip" because of its high rate of incidence within that dynasty. This deformity was so extreme in the last ruling Spanish Haspburg, Carlos II, that he was unable to chew.

BTW, Carlos II was the son of Felipe IV of Spain (a Spanish Hapsburg) and Mariana of Austria (an Austrian Hapsburg and Felipe's niece.) So the Hapsburgs (at least of his era) were not above the practice of inbreeding prevalent among the royal houses of Europe.

Though I doubt this would qualify him as a candidate for an American monarch, comedian Jay Leno is a notable person of modern times with the so-called "Hapsburg jaw."

I'm not sure of the dates involved - and it makes a difference. Nowadays it is quite unlikely that the Church would allow two first cousins to marry, no matter how exalted the family might be.

At the other end of the social whirl, one can easily find villages in various parts of Europe where inbreeding was a serious problem, because there was almost no alternative. A friend of mine (herself a woman of good health, outstanding education and high intellectual achievement - and she's also no strain on the eyes!) was horrified to discover that she is descended from such a village.

In modern Ireland, there is a strong social pressure on young people to refrain from marrying within the village, because today the problem is much better understood. I trust that the same is the case in other countries.

Fr. Serge

no question that this practice is forbidden, at least today, to "commoners" however is it really a sexual moral issue or one of culural origins. Did Christ ever say anything about this?

Interbreeding is not forbidden to commoners, and nowadays even royal families seem to have realized that inbreeding is a very bad idea.

I don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ mentioned this in particular. He also did not mention various other sexual practices which I shall not bother to name.

Fr. Serge

Intermarriage took place quite frequently. The Brazangal line that ruled Portugal had severe problems because of it (from the book The Epic of Latin America by John David Crow).

Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand were second cousins. Isabella's mother, also named Queen Isabella, was Portugese and Isabella was related to the Portugese royal line.

Mr. Clean:

regarding your earlier post, Queen Isabella was in fact a descendant of the Plantagenets. Her great-great grandfather was John of Gaunt, son of Edward III of England. Though his mistress, Kathryn Swynford, John of Gaunt had other descendants, the Beauforts, who married into the House of Tudor. Thus, Henry VIII and his first wife, Catherine of Aragon (daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella),were blood relatives as well, both could claim John of Gaunt as a great-great-great grandfather.

Dear Pavel you said:

I say:

Actually, they probably have other blood. King George III when looking for a wife with a perfect pedigree, married a German princess that was a descendant of as many as six lines of Margarita de Castro e Sousa, a Portuguese noblewoman. Castro was a descendant of Alfonso III of Portugal and his mistress, Madragana, who was known as Alfonso's Moor.

Well it's interesting to know why Queen Victoria was so petite, and certainly not German looking. I would love to find a blood line to some Byzantine Emporors. The problem seems to be that the Byzantine princesses were highly desired, but the European princelings were not. A pity, because closer ties to Western Europe might have saved them...yet it seems they gave them readily in marriage to the Muslims. You figure! :rolleyes:

Zenovia