www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem fires Patriarch Irineos I

Grace and peace Yuhannon,

Do you know of the book Caught In Between: The Extraordinary Story of an Arab Palestinian Christia Israeli by Riah Abu El-Assal, Bishop (Anglican) of Jerusalem? ISBN 0-281-05223-9, SPCK, 1999

I've not been able to read it all but it seems to take what you say and magnifiy it. If you have not heard of or found the book, I hope that you, and others here, will do so and find added hope to the situation of indigenous Christians in Palestine/Israel. grace and peace, wg

p.s. I am intrigued by your (Aramaic?) expressions; would you consider translating them for us. I think most of us can make sense of 'shlomo'-- peace, yes?!

I believe we should all pray the rosary or use our prayer ropes and pray for the election of a new Patriarch of Jerusalem as soon as possible and not judge anyone in this matter. I agree it is a sad situation, but I strongly believe we should be united in prayer with the Palestinian Christians at this difficult time and not pass judgement.

Thank you Sister Byzantina for your prayers, this is the we are in most need for.
And thank you all for taking a moment and reading this thread and trying to understand the difficult situation we are in as Christians in the Holy Land.

- no one is judging anyone - our actions judge us infront of our Father. A Patriarch is judged first infront of God and only then infront of the Church.

- My family, is one among many, who gave Land to the Church. each has his own reasons (my family's reason was to build another Church in Haifa). What ever be the reasons, the Land of the Church must be kept for the CHURCH, within the Church, used by the CHURCH ONLY.

Shlomo Aho (Peace to you brother)Goose,

You can order the book from The Society For Promoting Christian Knowledge [spckonline.com] . This is a direct link, so you would go to the book which is in print in the UK.

Poosh BaShlomo (Stay in Peace),
Yuhannon

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Here is the latest news.

Jordan Gets Demand for Irineos\' Ouster [news.yahoo.com]

I will quote the best parts of the story. "The document, signed by 13 members of the 17-member Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, was sent to Jordan's Interior Minister."

"Jordan, Jerusalem's holy site custodian, has said it would accept the dismissal if two-thirds of the synod's members backed the decision. It was unclear when it may make its decision."

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

If you do not believe in judging anyone in this matter, then why would you pray for the election of a new patriarch?

Photius

Dear Photius, if I have offended you I offer my sincere apologies and ask forgiveness. One of my spiritual fathers, the late Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco and the West, once told me that when a Patriarch or Metropolitan or any bishop is called home to God, at least it would be proper to pray for the election of a new Patriarch etc. for the stability of the church. So I ask your forgiveness for my stupidity, perhaps it's time I leave since I thought I wasn't judging, but merely asking for all of us to pray for the Church in Jerusalem.

Seraphim,

Please don't leave, brother. I think your intent was laudable and merely misunderstood as it was stated.

Photius, I believe, is suggesting (and I agree) that there is potentially a rush to judgment going on here. We have seen only the results of the Synodal inquiry - the request for the Patriarch's resignation - not the basis on which the request was made.

I am no fan of His Beatitude as I find the failure to actively seek out and assure the appointment of native Arab presbyters as hierarchs to be regretful and short-sighted on the part of the Patriarchate. Additionally, I think that the Patriarch has allowed himself to be put into a number of regretable situations, including the fracas a few months ago with the Franciscans - an event which I feel had no heroes - God's Holy Temple is not a place for ecclesiastics of either Church to be physically brawling with one another. That said, unless and until he is removed, he is the Patriarch and I will pray for him as such, that God keep him and grant him the wisdom to do what is best for his Church and God's people.

Just a reminder to all, there is no joy to be had in seeing rancor and dissension among the hierarchs and clergy of one of God's Churches. Regardless of what you elect to believe or disbelieve, it is a sorrowful thing that this has come to pass and prayers for its swift resolution, without harm to the Church of Jerusalem would be most appropriate.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Seraphim, Christ is Risen!
God forgives! But the matter is trivial. I thought that you considered the patriarch guilty, which he may or may not be, because he is still the patriarch, yet you were calling for the election of a new patriarch. In retrospect, you had assumed that he was no longer patriarch and the see was vacant (which by now may be true; I don't know).

Please don't "leave" anything on the basis of anything I may write; please forgive me for making you think you should!

Concerning Archbishop Anthony of blessed memory: I only met him once, and conversed a little while following a vigil. However, in my youth, I had a spiritual father by the name of Seraphim, who was a lifelong friend of Vladyka Anthony and they were tonsured together into the great schema. At the same Liturgy where Vladyka Anthony was ordained a priest, Father Seraphim was ordained a deacon. After Serbia fell to the communists, Vladyka Anthony followed ROCOR to the West, but Father Seraphim went to Athos and lived as a hermit. By the time I met Vladyka Anthony in 1987, Father Seraphim had reposed.

Photius

Dear Photius, I never intended for my post to sound as if I were pro-Greek or pro-Palestinian nor did I plan for my post to sound as if I believe the Patriarch of Jerusalem is guilty. With the situation in the Middle East I pray daily for peace there as well as the rest of this world. When Archbishop Anthony reposed in the Lord, at his funeral my tears flowed as I had lost another spiritual father who always when he saw my son and I came to speak with us and offer spiritual advice and guidance. And to date Archbishop Anthony is the only bishop I have met who truly loved being at the Kliros, he was as he told me a "monk first, priest second, and bishop last my only intention is that we should pray for peace Photius, in 1983 the Marine Barracks in Beirut, Lebanon was destroyed and I was a body escort for a buddy from boot camp. After 10+ years in the Corps, I've seen too much horror to not ask for peace, my most honorable and most humbling period in the Corps was when the Chaplain at my unit at Camp Lejeune, NC, told me in this Marine's will, he had listed me as his body escort. I had to tell my buddy's father away from his wife that an open casket would not be possible (I don't think I would need to detail why here) my dear Brother Photius, during my long stint in the Corps wherever my orders took me, I would see people suffering and I would always give them some money, candy for the kids etc. I was a Marine trained for one purpose! However, I saw the suffering of fellow men, women and children and I knew world governments have the means to ensure peace and in my opinion wipe out world hunger, yet, world governments continue to prepare for war and spend billions on weapons to kill. Again I apologize if my post sounded as though I belived the Patriarch of Jerusalem to be guilty as that was not my intention. I hope this post may explain or at least better explain my post? In Christ my brother Photius, please forgive me!

The Lord is between us,

I like the spirit of this forum; you can feel Christ in the forgiving spirit of this place. God bless you all. I am proud to be a small part of this blessed place.

I would like to ask you all not to use terms such as "pro-Greek" - "pro-Palestinian" - "Arab Christians" - "American Christians" ... I myself have used these terms once and I feel very sorry that I have. Giving a Christian Group (a Church) a political/national distinction automatically scattereth. �He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.� (Matthew 30:12)
I am a Melkite Catholic, but I will always see the Orthodox Church as my Church just the same as my �home Church� (if that may be said). There is no power in the universe that can separate the Church, for we are all unite in the Holy Spirit, in the blood and body of our Lord and Savior, in our Father in the Heavens.

Yes we have Greek priests in the Holy Land in the Orthodox Church, as well as Arab Orthodox priests. There is no war of nationality in the Church, and whoever wants to start one (and believe me there are many here) will be another Judas. Yes I am an Arab, but I belong to the Nation of Christ. I do not hate Americans, German, French, English or whomever carries a cross on his shoulders and love in his heart � we are all the same � all one in the Lord.

Amen to all the prayers said here,
Amen to you all,
You recognize Christ when his folk gather around Him in hard times,
And here we gather around our Shepherd.

OK This is a dumb question from a convert, even one of 25 years. HOW DOES ONE FIRE A PATRIARCH?

We are blessed to be Ruthenians serving in a Melkite parrish, so I have a small understanding of what the Palastenians are going through as we are about 35% Palastenian( we have a huge Ramullah representaion), 40% Lebonese, and a melting pot of others. They are such a wonderful people and culture, as much as our own is, each it truly a treasure of and for the Body of Christ, his Chrurch.

There is a tremendous sadness of loss of their properties by both of the Arab cultures. Those that left homes behind, many of who still own them, many in Jerusalem. (I love in when they speak of being Baptised in the River Jordan) So I can truly understand why they are so upset with the selling of this property. It was freely given to the Church, which to me, seems like it would be highly treasured by the Church for the posterity of it's people.

It must be totally confusing there. I use to think of the Scripture of Christ weeping over Jerusalem, saying 'when I return will I find any faith' thinking that he meant the world. I often wonder now days if Jesus did not literally mean 'Jerusalem'.

So we will continue to pray for our brothers and sisters in the Middle East.

Pani Rose

Photius,
It is not absurd. It may be like that now in th e Orthdox jurisdictions but I would suggest that you take a good course in the hisory of the Church. From the earliest years it was held that they Apostolic See of Rome was judged by no one.
However you may disagree with it that does not refute the fact that it was a held opinon.
Stephanos I

I disagree. That "The Patriarch of one Church is judged by no one, except the See of Rome" is absurd, unless one is (like you) a Roman Catholic. Even so, as has oft been discussed on this forum in the short time I've been a member, many Catholics today seem to acknowledge that Rome was simply a "first among peers" until the ninth century.
That the patriarch of one Church is judged by no one, save by his peers, holds in the Orthodox Church as it did in antiquity.
If you are trying to make a point along the lines that Orthocdox Christians are heretics, well, that is your prerogative in a free society, but not, as I understand it, on this forum.

I have, thank you.

I agree; but, I also know that no patriarch was judged by any individual on earth; Rome was one of several such Churches over whom was no earthly authority.

Photius

Are you the one suggesting they are heretics?
I made no such insinuation! In fact if you know my posts here, I will not even call them Schismatics.
Stephanos I