www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem fires Patriarch Irineos I

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Here is the link to the story. Patriarch Irineos I fired [uk.news.yahoo.com]

The end of a very sad story - and again the Christians are the victems of the greed of one or more "Shepherds" ...

Eli,

Which ones are the greedy ones?

Dan L

I think we can only pray for the Church of Jerusalem...and I would not pass judgement on the former Patriarch...

Anton

Shlomo Dan,

Instead of being cryptic please expand on your point of "Which ones are the greedy ones?" I am sure we Middle Eastern Christians would like to know.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Ameen,

Due process may work its course... and God knows if anyone is guilty.

The article uses different language at different points. It talks about 'sale' and 'lease.'

Those two things are slightly different to the other.

Sounds like there is some history there that this article is bothered with.

Prayer indeed is in order...

Yuhannon,

Which ones are the greedy ones. The ones who want to keep the property to themselves or the ones who leased/sold it off? Perhaps, neither is greedy? I don't know. After all we're not talking about a Church that is in the hands of Palestinians but is in the hands of Greeks. So which ones, if any, are greedy?

Dan L

Shlomo Dan,

I can now understand your confussion. First, the people who want to keep the land within the Church see it as part of their, and by extension our, patrimony.

The Patriarch on the otherhand leased (or sold) the land to show the Israelis that he was not too close to the Palestinian leadership, as a few articles have stated.

Part of the problem is that many Christians in the West either ignore the problem for Christians in the Holy Land, or let their guilt for what they did to the Jews get in the way of understanding what is being done to their co-religious now. One of the biggest issues is that the Israelis deny permits to Christians to be guilds to Christian pilgrims.

We hate no one, be we will not go quitely into the night. For us, the Greek Church's control of the Jerusalem Patriarchate is the last vestage of religious colonialism, and its time is about to end.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Forgive my long answer, but this must be clear for all of us Christian so we will never say �I did not know� and maybe we all can help when we do. Forgive my honesty if it�s too sharp.

These are facts:

Most Christians in the Holy Land (and I say most) will say �We are Christians, Arabs, Israel/Palestinians.� Most of them will say �Christian� First. If you ask me, my answer will be, I am a Christian and nothing more. The fact is that 99% of the Christians in the Holy Land are Arabs.

It is well known that the Israeli Jewish government, the Jewish (Zionist) politics, have played, and still is in a fact, playing a major role in inner Church �politics� such as Patriarch appointments for the churches in the Holy Land. The government of Israel will not accept any Patriarch who will not submit to a pro-Zionist mentality, and will force the Church to change him.

It is also well known that when the Israeli government, a Jew or the Zionism-movement buy a land for 99, 199 or 999 years from the Church it will NEVER give it back. Funny enough when this land is in the hands of the Church the Church cannot use it for any purpose, however when they buy it, this land becomes one of the most valuable and most usable lands. (all the �funny� unrealistic numbers are widespread when you read contracts made between the Church of the Holy Land and the Government of Israel)

Most Patriarchs in the Orthodox Church are Greek and have no connection at all with the native Christians of the land, most of them cannot even communicate with us, the simple people; their flock, because they don�t know the native language.

Now let us combine all of that together:
We have a submissive Patriarch who supports the same people who are the wolves eating his folk one by one. He is supports these wolves because he wish not to give up his �Crown.� The greedy ones are those who forgot that they are in the Church to serve, that being the greatest is being a servant. The Greedy are those who give away the property of the Church to the foul so they may have glory. The greedy are those who will allow the wolves to kill and feast on the Lord�s Folk only so they see themselves as masters.

A fact: Many Native Orthodox Christians in the Holy Land are upset and getting far from their Church due to the false actions of their Shepherds, Patriarchs, priests and pro-Zionist Church policy. Many problems will be solved if the Church would STOP SUBMITTING to the foul forces of Zionism and would act by the LORD�S RIGHTEOUSNESS. Giving a chance for Arabs to reach higher ranks in the Orthodox Church will also solve a lot of problems.

It seems to me that the Orthodox Church of the Holy Land forgot that the body of the Church are the people and that the head is the almighty Lord. It gave the chance for illness to strike its body, and the foulness of pro-Zionist politics to take over. BUT we shall not forget that the Holy Spirit is with us, and in God�s will all shall be well.

I would like to note that a Christian will never hate a Jew or a Muslim or who so ever, a Christian will always see the image of God in any human being who ever he is. I do not want anyone to mistake my honesty for hatred for one group or another, not for Jews, Israelis. Zionist and Certainly my own flesh and blood � other Brothers and Sisters in the Lord Jesus Christ � Glory to Him.

May the Holy Spirit guide us to the safe shore,
Eli

From what I understand from those Palestinian Christians who live there, the "feeling" attached to the land comes from the fact that often in the last few decades, land was gifted to the Church in order to prevent it being seized by the Israelis. As a result, people feel very strongly about this, as much of the land the church possesses would have passed to the family if all things had been fair and equal and above-board. Sadly, they are not, but with this background, you can see that the feelings might run higher than in other places.

Gaudior, who, also, does not choose sides on this issue.

The Patriarch of one Church is judged by no one, except the See of Rome, and so since they are out of communion with the Apostolic See I guess there is no one to judge them then.
Stephanos I
(That does not mean that I agree with the actions of the Patriarch but then again it is also wrong for anyone in the Church to judge him.)

Actually, the see of Constantinople has been hearing such appeals since the time of the (East) Roman Empire.

Hello Eli

Hello Eli

Sorry, previous post an error. Things are so difficult for you Christians in the Holy Land and sometimes I think we here in the West tend to forget that. I will pray for you.


Your Sister In Christ

Christ is Risen!
That's absurd! When a patriarch is tried, he is judged by his peers. At the trial of Patriarch Nikon of Moscow, for example, all the other Orthodox Patriarchs were invited to attend, and a couple actually did sojourn to Moscow.

Photius