www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall For Pastor Roger

Dear Pastor,

Just a question with respect to the Celtic connection.

How would you see your Church as relating to Celtic Christianity - if you see it as relating to it?

In what ways? How does Celtic spirituality come into play?

Alex

That is an excellent question which intrigues me. I am presently working on the doctrinal beliefs of the Celtic Church in Ireland from St Patrick to the 10th century. I will know more when I am finished.

I hold to a sola scriptura so would base my beliefs in Celtic Christianity on their view of the scriptures and application of such. I will let you know more than I get further into my studies.

N.B. My comment on sola scriptura is not intended in any way to be critical ot stir up a debate. It is only intended as part of my reply.

Dear Rev. Pastor,

Excellent!

I visited the monastery on the isle of St Honoratus where St Patrick trained, I believe.

I too believe in "Sola Scriptura" - but within the context of the Church's teaching authority.

There is nothing in Tradition that is not somehow connected to the Scriptures, we believe.

For the Eastern Church, reading the Scriptures is a form of prayer, as you know, and as it was for the Celtic Christians who read the Gospel of John and the Acts of the Apostles incessantly in their daily horologion.

And I believe the Celtic church also accepted the Shepherd of Hermas and the Apostles Creed as part of their New Testament (?).

Alex

I beleive you are correct Alex. I am looking forward to the research and to the end work.

I will be appraching this from an evangelical Christian viewpoint, so have already found some of the research fascinating.

Dear Pastor,

Here is a site that you might find interesting as well:

celticchristianity.org

Are members of your church given to reciting psalms whilst standing in cold water?

Cheers!

Alex

Thanks Alex - I have used that site.

At the present we have not uncorporated any Celtic practices. Especailly that one

Dear Pastor,

What I found especially fascinating about the Celtic tradition is its monasticism and those wonderful "beehive" cells!

It was St Ninian of Galloway, I believe, who set up churches in the centre of some of those Stonehenge-like stone circles and also in the formerly Druidic groves of trees.

The mistle-toe is, as you know, an old druidic object of veneration and they wore liturgical gloves to remove the sacred berries from the oak trees.

That is why people hugged and kissed underneath it - to confirm that there was only love between them, otherwise hatred could defile the mistle-toe and give it offense.

York Minster, to this day I believe, has a clergyman who dons gloves and brings in a bushel of mistle-toe that is placed in a side chapel for Christmas . . .

Alex

Part of my concern in my research so far is the adoption and "christianisation" of pagan symbology into Christian worship.

However, I am still learning and perhaps I will learn more as I go along.

If I may, wasn't the reason for "Orthodox" practices in Celtic Christianity the result of the Coptic monks which escorted St. Patrick throughout Ireland?

I haven't come across this yet Ray. There does seem to be some Coptic influence, but in my research I have not come across the Coptic monks who travelled with Patrick.

Much of the Patrick story is conjecture. We only have two original source, Confession and Letter to Coroticus. Trying to piece together the historical facts is proving a challange.

Rev. Pastor Rogers,

May I recommend an interesting website:
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~er719/patrick.html

The site goes on to state, "A community of Coptic monks went to Gaul where they founded a community on an island called "Lerins" in the Mediterranean Sea . The island was nearGaul.

David Marshall, Ph.D. of the University of Hull, England, has written a book which discusses the strong connection between the St. Patrick and the Coptic Monks in Lerins."

It sounds like this Dr. Marshall might have an iteresting book. I might try to find a copy for myself.

It continues, "St. Patrick lived with these monks learning the "Coptic Christianity of Egypt". The Coptic Church originated directly from the Church of Jerusalem, rather than from Rome and was also not like the Byzantine Church."

Dear Friends,

Actually, there are seven Coptic monastic saints buried in Ireland - and they are mentioned in the ancient Irish litanies of the Saints.

The Irish practice of reciting 12 psalms in groups or "sessions" - like the Byzantine kathismata - this is taken directly from the Coptic tradition.

In addition, the Rev. Pastor's concerns with pagan practices is well-founded.

However, if he puts up a Christmas tree for Christmas - then he is himself following a Christianized pagan tradition, as well as the practice of putting green around the windows and doors!

The Celtic missionaries "sained" such practices by giving them a Christian meaning etc.

Even the Celtic Cross (which also figures in East Slavic staurology) with its circle in the middle, the "haloed Cross" was a way to Christianize the pagan cult of the sun that figured so prominently in formerly pagan Celtic and Slavic lands.

This is where we get our "Sunday" from where Christ has become our "Sun" and we have hymns that say this as well.

The national Ukrainian flower is the sunflower and Ukrainian traditional bread is always round like the sun's orb.

Alex

Dear Ray,

I visited that island and I saw the remains of seven chapels scattered on the isle's perimeter - some of them are functioning as chapels today and they've found the skeletons of MANY monastics buried around them.

Their main Church is on an outcropping of land jutting out into the Mediterranean - it is a ruin today but the Cistercian monks who are now there often walk into it as they say their office and psalms.

The Saracens martyred a large number of monks there who are all part of the Choir of Saints of Lerins (I purchased a copy of their beautiful Byzantine icon of all Saint of Lerins with St Honoratus at the centre).

It takes less than half an hour to walk around the island and the monks have a thriving beekeeping, herbalist and food business going for pilgrims. I bought two bottles of their "Lerina" alcoholic beverage - one should always be near a chair when one decides to take a healthy swig of it!

A peaceful place where Coptic and Western monasticism and spirituality came together . . .

Alex

Thanks to each of you for your input. I should have considered this source earlier and you have been very helpful.

My concern with adoption of pagan practices has more to do with symbols such as the Sheila na gig, a Celtic representation of a fertility goddess who adorns many Celtic churches, than it does with Christmas trees. I find it difficult to determine a Christian meaning for symbols such as this. I prefer not to provide a link, but google sheila na gig for more information should you desire such.

Your point is well taken that we have adopted many "pagan" practices into various aspects of our lives. Thank you for that reminder.

Dear Pastor Roger,

And having a good time is one pagan tradition that we Christians do well to hang on to - albeit in a more reserved fashion.

I understand that St Valentine's day was a way to Christianize the pagan love feasts . . .

Alex