www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ukrainian & Ruthenian Churches

"Ruthenian" is a notoriously difficult word to define adequately - and I have no intention of attempting that linguistic feat right this minute. Just to add to the confusion, though, I could produce a footnote from the Journal of Bielorussian Studies a couple of decades ago, defining "Ruthenian" as "an archaic term meaning Greek Orthodox". Incognitus

Dear Admin, I find it interesting that while you often advocate a united American Greek Catholic hiearchy, you here seem to want to distance the Carpatho-Rusyn from the Kyivan Patriarchate... wouldn't a unified European church centered around that most eastern style of governance, a Patriarchate, also be to the benefit of all Greek catholics there?

I am speaking strictly on ecclesiastical terms here, and would certainly approve of a situation like in the OCA where various dioceses coexist in peace and united in hiearchy. Micro churches sui iuris directly dependent on Rome for all major ecclesiastical decisions is certainly not something Byzantine.

It seems with the frequent meetings between Kyr Slavomir Mivklosh and the UGCC hierarchy that he certainly feels that way.

I believe Metropolitan Andrew had jurisdiction over all Slavic Greek Catholics at that time in the Austro-Hungarian empire. It is because of his efforts that the Ordo and the Ruthenian Rescension exist and were promulgated.

Dear Administrator,

I do not accept your estimation of my being anti-Russian.

I am anti-imperialism, yes. I hope you are too.

But I DO deny that I am anti-Russian per se. That would be quite a great sin on mine or anyone else's part.

I do take offense at your unjust accusation as I take offense at your continuing use of a version of the capital of a free nation that would be offensive to its citizens.

I'm sorry that I misjudged you and your intentions toward me here.

I wish you and everyone here a happy Nativity season, but I know you'll understand why I take offense at what I consider to be your unjust attitude toward me.

Or perhaps that is just too much to ask.

Forgive me if I say I think you, Sir, are an ass-hole.

Alex

Diak,

Thanks for your post.

I do support a Kievan Patriarchate and believe that all of the Greek Catholics within Ukraine should somehow be part of it. Such a patriarchate would greatly assist the Church in ministering to all of the people � Ukrainian and non-Ukrainian who live in the current borders of Ukraine. Your example of the current structure of the OCA is one I have promoted in the past.

My comments in no way distance or preclude Carpatho-Rusins living in Ukraine from some sort of relationship with Kiev. My only concern is that the situation for the Carpathians is awkward as they are now geographically divided among several countries. Being American, I have no stake in the matter other than to speak for their freedom to decide such things for themselves.

The fact that Carpatho-Rusins may have been under the jurisdiction of Metropolitan Andrew for a period of time when they were also subject to the Austro-Hungarian Empire does not make Kiev the mother Church of the Rusin people. Unless, of course, you�re going to argue that Kiev being subject to Moscow during the communist period makes Moscow the mother Church of Kiev!

Admin

I would not argue such a thing nor take so lightly that oppression of the church of Kyiv.

In terms of mother we all share a common mother in Constantinople.

It seems forgotten that it was during that period under the guidance of Metropolitan Andrey that the Ordo and the Ruthenian service books were promulgated, and I for one thank God profusely for those efforts which undoubtedly have prevented many further latinizations. I doubt highly that any such organized effort could or would have been made amongst the Carpatho-Rusyn eparchies.

I would hope the saintly efforts under the guidance of Metropolitan Andrey would be respected and celebrated. There was far more Greek Catholic solidarity in those times than exists presently. I do not appreciate those times being compared with the oppression of the godless Communists nor that dark period of Communist oppression being taken lightly.

Diak,

Thank you for your post.

I agree that it is not appropriate to take the oppression of the Church of Kiev lightly. My statement illustrated the absurdity of the idea that since the Carpatho-Rusins were subject to Metropolitan Andrew because it was deemed so by a political entity that Kiev somehow automatically becomes their mother Church.

I agree that Metropolitan Andrew�s memory should be respected and celebrated. The best way would be by encouraging our Churches to actually follow the Ordo and celebrate the Divine Services according to our own Ruthenian liturgical tradition.

Admin

Immediately after the Union of Uzhorod until the "official" erection of the Eparchy of Mukachevo in 1771, the bishop of Mukachevo was considered an episcopal vicar of the Latin bishop of Eger. Then in 1771 Mukachevo was made suffragan to the Latin Metropolitan Archdiocese of Esztergom. Later in 1937, it was made directly subject to the Holy See. The Eparchy of Krizevci was suffragan to the Latin Metropolitan Archdiocese of Zagreb.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Wow! I predicted gunfire, and it looks like we got it.

Anyway, Dr. Roman, I'm going to make a simple suggestion: Apologize for the over-the-top verbiage to the administrator and move on.

Please, oh please; no overblown, melodramatic: "I'm leaving forever" baloney.

It's simply not going to happen. You're never leaving.

Before that posting, I wanted to tell you that I respect your pretty even-handed comments on the Rusyn Question. That's a rarity from strong Ukrainian nationalists.

After that posting, I still wanted to tell you that. Just cut out the vulgarian behavior... or is it behaviour north of the border?

--Tim Cuprisin

Alex,

If you feel that you have to call your brother an obscenity, do it in a PM. Please don't subject Forum members to filthy degrading language.

I respect both you and the Administrator.

Let gentlemen remain gentlemen.

Paul

As an Anglo-Celt attending a Ruthenian Byzantine parish but also with close ties to the Romanian Catholic parish nearby I can't tell you how fascinating I have found this discussion. Not that I am any less confused, mind you, but it's been a dizzying ride! Eventually I may figure this all out, in the meantime I'll continue to bask in the glory of the Liturgy and enjoy my newfound taste for Eastern European food...
And Alex,whatever offense I have taken with your occasional outbursts in the past has just been blown out of the water; that was really tasteless, out of line and beneath you. May I suggest that when you feel compelled to an angry post that you wait 24 hours to write it? I know you will feel penitent about this.
A few weeks back that is precisely what I wanted to say to you! However I waited until I had calmed down to respond; I highly recommend this, as a fellow hothead.

Alex,

Thank you for your post. I am sure that there are many Forum participants and readers who agree with you.

I never know how to take most of your posts. You have participated here on the Forum for about five years. During that five years most participants (including me, as well as a few Ukrainians) have used the spelling �Kiev� almost exclusively. The search engine on the Forum is not the best but it returned a handful of links to threads in which you yourself used the term, mostly written as �Kyiv/Kiev�. It is only in the last year and a half or so that there are a few posts from you to Daniil and others asking people to consider using the new Ukrainian spelling. A quick Yahoo! search on both terms gives 321,000 results for �Kyiv� and 2,690,000 results for �Kiev�. About 15-20% of the websites for �Kiev� have a .ua domain. If you insist on being offended by the spelling �Kiev� you will need to be angry at pretty much the entire world � including many who live in Ukraine. I think that the better tactic would be to follow the example of the Chinese. In 1958 the communist Chinese government changed the transliteration system they used to render Chinese characters into the Roman alphabet, changing �Peking� to �Beijing�. Yet it was not until the 1980�s when the American part of the English speaking world started using the new spelling. I think the better tactic is just to be patient and wait until the world gets around to raising a generation of people who are comfortable with the new spelling.

I am glad to hear that you are not really anti-Russian. Since you have now stated that several times I will accept your word and I apologize for considering you to be anti-Russian. Your posts do read (at least to me) as if you are one who is anti-Russian so you may wish to consider that in the future.

Finally, I thank you for your Nativity greetings. I also wish you and all our readers a very joyful Christmas.

Admin

Incredibly classy response, Mr Administrator, sir, particularily without a 24 hour cooling off period!

Dear Administrator,

I'm sorry about Alex's outburst. As Tim said, I thought both you and Alex were very even handed. I also thought both of you were funny at times, always very polite, and very informative.


Dear Incognitus,

I attended a lecture last year across the river at Harvard University's faculty of Ukrainian Studies. The lecture was related to a series of 400 - 500 year old maps, some of which they have in their archives.

These lectures are scholarly but can be understood by most people who have completed a basic University education. Here are a few highlights of my notes:

Although it existed before, the term "Ruthenia" was largely popularized by a famous French cartographer named 'Beaplan' who mapped much of what is NOW Ukraine and Bielorus during the 16th century (ie: 1500's).

He was attracted to the 'Ruthenia' by the Cossacks uprisings and their 'state'. Western Europeans wanted to learn more about these Cossacks.

His name (Beauplan) quite literally means 'nice-plan' or 'nice-map'.

His maps are titled 'Ruthenia' which is Latin for 'Rus'. All European maps used Latin in the 16th century.

The people according to him were Ruthenians (Rusyns).

The words 'Ukraine', 'Bielorus', and 'Russia' are NOT to be found on these historical maps. The word 'Muscovy' does appear in what now is largely European Russia.

What I liked most about these maps with the wealth of information relating to the structure of the church in Ruthenia. He largely defined the maps by the churches found on it's territory.

Trying to understand the 'name game' for this territory over time is confusing to say the least but criticaly in understanding the religious history of the Carpatho-Rusins, Ukrainians, and Bielorusians.

I hope that this information helps.

I apologise for my outburst at the Administrator.

It was uncalled for and crude.

My differences with the Administrator are, however, insurmountable.

I feel that in calling me "anti-Russian" I am being branded a racist.

That is unacceptable to me now and it always will be.

And, Hritzko, there is no need for you to apologise to the Administrator on my behalf.

If you feel that I have no right to be upset over these issues, I'm sorry, brother. I feel you should be as upset about these issues as I am. But, frankly, I don't care any more.

My only regret is to have wasted so much time on this forum.

Alex

Dear Alex-
A few weeks ago, when we were having an argument you made the assumption that I was a callow youth. In fact, examining your profile I realize that you are a few years younger than I. And it's showing, kid. No one, including the Administrator, who has obvious affection for you, wants you to go away. You are far too entertaining [and informative]. We all [I think] appreciate your erudition and sense of humor. You just need to learn when to calm down, Big Guy.
Just apologize, don't call people names, and continue to post [which I'm sure you will do anyway].
I understand that the Administrator hit a sore spot and you're a sensitive guy but come on, there's so much more to talk about!