www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ukrainian & Ruthenian Churches

Dear Alex,

The comment you made to the administrator is certainly not called for. I was surprised. I'm a big "B" nationalist but I still do not see a need to say things like that. I was just hoping that nobody saw it - but I guess they did. I hope he (or she) accepts your appology.

I think that the site allows for just the right amount of 'feelings' to be inserted in our posts to get our messages accross without offending anyone.

In regards to the KYIV vs KIEV debate, I did make a post a few days ago addressed to you and the administrator concerning the issue (it's up there somewhere). This was my 3 part summary relating to Ukraine's capital:

(1) The Ukrainian government would like the 'KYIV' spelling to be used as opposed to 'KIEV'

(2) Most people either can't read (pronounce) KYIV or think it is a misspelling of KIEV, or it just does not resonate, and so revert to the Soviet Russian colonial era spelling (KIEV).

(3) I think that the administrator is correct in stating that over time KYIV will probably be adapted. A polite reminder every year would be just right !

I noticed yesterday (or the day before) that you used the Russian colonial spelling of ODESSA for the Ukrainian port city of ODESA. Hey it happens to the best of us

You can correct me as much as you like I warn you now this can be a very tiresome exercise.

I'm too tired to continue this post tonight so I will finish tomorrow during our very important meeting

Dear Hritzko,

Yes, I apologised to the Administrator for using that word that I agree was uncalled for.

Whether or not he accepts my apology is up to him - I could care less. No one should take kindly to being called what amounts to the term "racist." And his later post does nothing to ameliorate what he truly believes about myself and, I believe by extension, of other Ukrainians.

I think that we use strong words at times to express what we really feel. And I did that. Sorry you and others find that not to your liking.

What I find not to my liking is how you, a self-professed big "B" nationalist, can focus ONLY on my reaction to the Administrator.

In calling me "anti-Russian," perhaps the Administrator is also calling other historically self-aware Ukrainians "anti-Russian" as well, yourself included?

You don't find that offensive?

As for "Kyiv," the point is that the spelling of that is established and recognized world-wide now.

I know this because I worked with diplomats and consuls general, including that of Mongolia who himself knows how to spell "Kyiv" in English (his Ukrainian is excellent as well).

The Administrator, unlike the many other examples on the internet he likes to cite, cannot himself claim ignorance on this score.

Your example of "Odesa" is simply out of place here.

Your own reaction to this final exchange between myself and my former friend the Administrator reminds me of the Ukrainian saying: "They're spitting on him, but he insists it's only rain."

With regrets,

Alex

Alex,
I am only commenting on this.

You seem to take exception to the Admin when, in your view, he paints you as anti-russian as you feel this labels you a racist.

I do not think it labels you a racist and at times your comments do appear anti-russian.

But, to take your being upset to the level you did with a reply seems off to me.

I have to restrain myself greatly everytime I read here that as a person of Ruthenian descent that I am really a Ukrainian and that the Ukrainian Church is really our mother church so we should just give it up and join with the UGCC.

I know this might not be your intent, but it is the way it appears to me when you talk about this.

Part of me wants to say I would 'dox before I would join the UGCC, but I know this is my bias and I must work though it, but it doesn't help when my ancestors ethnicity is belittled by saying that they are really Ukrainians.

I know that I probably not have posted this reply, but all this talk of ethnicity and who is what is starting to bug me very much.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Dear David,

That you have a problem with Ukrainians is something that has also been evident for some time.

I too sometimes have a problem with them!

Alex

Alex,
As has your problems with russians.

I hope your not implying that I am racist.

I don't have a problem with Ukrainians, I have a problem with Ukrainians who are imperialistic in nature.

That is Ukrainians who think every slav is Ukrainian or subject to Ukrain.

Actually, my problem is with any one who implies or thinks that one ethnicity is superior to any other.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Dear Administrator,

I ask you to forgive me for my crude reaction to you yesterday.'

I ask you to do this for the sake of OLGS Jesus Christ, and not for mine.

For my part, I will attend Confession and submit myself to whatever epitimia is given me for what is my sin.

However, the issue between us remains and you would be the first to tell me never to back down if I thought I was right - just as you did not back down when I thought you were wrong.

I'm sorry it came to this, given our long association.

But even if we could patch things up sufficiently for me to return here in more or less good standing, with your approval, there would only be something else down the road that would set things off for me again - as, you know, has happened before.

I feel I am misinterpreted here. I am no more anti-Russian than an Armenian would be anti-Turk or an American anti-Iraqi.

The Russians have not apologised, as you know, for what they did to the UGCC or for its long colonial history over Ukraine and other peoples.

More than this, they and their Church largely continue in their old colonial mentality toward them.

This does not mean reconciliation can't happen at some future date or that it isn't already beginning to happen.

But to critique that colonial mentality in whomever or whatever way it expresses itself is not being "anti" per se.

Even Our Lord defended Himself when He was slapped by saying, "Why do you strike Me?"

If I have ever said anything to denigrate the Russian Church or people, I apologise as this would be a horrific sin on my part.

But to critique persisting colonial attitudes - that is rather a responsibility rather than something one should shrink from.

Perhaps it is true that these issues, as David said, are really irrelevant to North American BC's for whom their ancestral culture is but a distant memory associated with dead relatives.

That is, no doubt, the real difference between our Churches and peoples.

I will never stop interceding for everyone here on this Forum as long as the Lord allows me to live on His earth.

I beg your forgiveness and that of everyone here.

And I ask you to remember me in your prayers and to bring yourselves to forgive me, if not immediately, then at some time in the future, if possible.

A Happy Nativity season to you all and a blessed New Year!

In repentance,

Alex

Dear David,

I am not implying you are a racist, and I apologise if I gave that impression.

I have a problem with Russian imperialism, yes.

And if you feel Ukrainians are also imperialistic or hoard their ethnicity over others, then they too deserve your reprimand.

God bless you on your spiritual path, Big Guy, I'll never forget you and will keep you in my prayers always!

Take care!

Alex

Alex,

I've bitten my tongue for several days now. Your pride in your ethnicity and concern for your Church is admirable, or would be, if not for the fact that it has increasingly been exhibited as an ultra-nationalism that ignores the fact that others, as well as Ukrainians suffered under either the Tsarist or Communist regimes or both. That included Ruthenians, Bielorussians, Romanians, Albanians, Armenians, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovacks, Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Latvians, Serbs, Croats, and virtually every other Slav and/or East European nation, including the Russian people themselves.

You have, in recent days, disparaged Russians as a group, written off Byzantine Jesuits as a whole, and effectively dismissed the separate identity of virtually every people who ever shared a border with Ukraine, while branding anyone who spells Kyev with an "i" as anti-Ukrainian, yet admitting in one post that your opinions are perhaps even too extreme for many in your own community. You are alienating people, including those who are ordinarily very tolerant and even supportive of you, and exhibiting an arrogance and rudeness that is insulting and demeaning to any and all who may disagree with you in any way.

You need to rethink your stance and your approach.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Alex,

It is God who forgives!

I thank you for your apology and accept it.

But my PM box is full of complaints from people who were offended by your action. Most have demanded that I show you no special favoritism as I have in the past. I am forced to agree. Normally I ask people to refrain for posting for 30 days. Since, however, this is the Christmas season and I know that your parish follows the Julian Calendar I will ask that you refrain from posting again until Christmas Day, January 7th (three weeks). You may, of course, continue to post prayer requests or offers of prayer in the Prayer Forum.

Regarding the spelling of the word �Kiev� I suggest again you have a lot of work ahead of you in your own Ukrainian Church before you bother trying to change me. This morning I called a friend of mine who is a Ukrainian Catholic priest (who speaks fluent Ukrainian). After we greeted one another I asked him the correct spelling of �Kiev�. He responded: �K-I-E-V, why?� I told him about the controversy and he just started laughing and said there were more important things to worry about. You might also speak with the fine folks at the Sheptytsky Institute of Eastern Christian Studies in Ottawa as they are Ukrainians who continue to use the spellings �Kiev� and �Kievan� in their publications.

Finally, since you believe that I am in error for seeing anti-Russian sentiments in your posts you might consider that at least two others � David and Neil � see the same.

I thank you for your prayers and will keep you in mine. I wish you only the best during this holy season.

Admin