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JohnS. Offline OP
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Should the Byzantine Catholic Churches return to Orthodoxy to facilitate the union between East and West?


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Votes accepted starting: 01/01/70 12:00 AM
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John S,

That's a tough one. I guess I'd stand on my head and do hail mary's if it would bring about union. But if we went back to Orthodoxy would it be seen as a movement toward or away from union?

CDL

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djs Offline
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Quote
Should the Byzantine Catholic Churches return to Orthodoxy to facilitate the union between East and West?
You are really begging the qustion here. What makes you think that such a "return" would substantively facilitate union between East and West?

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Dear John you said:

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Should the Byzantine Catholic Churches return to Orthodoxy to facilitate the union between East and West?
I say:

Actually it would do nothing, or maybe take away one of the reasons for having unity. It seems that we came close to unity at one time, but that was lost with the political problems after the break up of the Soviet Union.

Today there is a movement of the people towards unity, and it becomes stronger and stronger as time goes on. The Holy Spirit's at work here...so give it time. wink

Zenovia

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I honestly can`t see how this would bring the Orthodox back into union any quicker, but would be interested in hearing the opposite point of view.

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There were legitimate historical reasons for the Unia back 400 years ago and the lack of leadership in the churches and the political divisions in Eastern Europe but to be honest do these reasons exist anymore today? From an Orthodox perspective the Unia did help sustain and preserve the Church in the "backwaters" of Austria-Hungary but times have changed.

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No, no and no.

Let's step back for a few moments and think this through: [sorry I'm longwinded. I want to give precise answers]

1. the Catholic Church is not a religous sect led by a guy in Rome. It is the sheepfold of the God, who created heaven and earth; founded by Him and guided by His Spirit, given to the care and leadership of twelve people who were consecrated as His ministers, and under the leadership of St. Peter. EVERYONE who has been baptized, chrismated, and permitted to receive our God's body and blood, from a legitimate "descendant" of an apostle who holds the orthodox faith , and whether he's Latin, Byzantine, Coptic, Assyrian, or whatever, is a member of the Catholic Church. This is also true regardless of whether this community, led by a particular bishop, is in union with any other particular bishop. So, all [big O] "Orthodox" are part of the Catholic Church by virtue of their apostolic succession and their adherence to the orthodox faith, regardless of whether or not they're in union with Rome. Dominus Iesus, par. 17 [vatican.va]

2. Now, most of the Patriarchates and Eparchies who are descended from the tradition of Constantinople are not in union with Rome. This is because these churches believe that the insertion "filioque" in to the Nicene Creed, the Augustinian definition of orginal sin, and the current understanding of the role of the Pope of Rome in relation to the rest of the Church, are denials of the "deposit of faith" given by Christ to His Apostles . Of course, a better understanding on both sides is mitigating this, but nevertheless we're far from smoothing them over and for now the schism formally exists.

3. However, some Patriarchates (including parts of the great Patriarchates of Antioch and Kyiv) and Eparchies returned to Rome unilaterally for various reasons, enduring the censure of the remainder of those Patriachates and Eparchies. Of course, there have been Latinizations and things like that, a result of the culture of the west's belief that it was superior to that of Byzantium. Some of those Patriarchates and Eparchies went along with this, influenced by a theological (for lack of a better word) process alien to their religious culture and probably in order to "fit in". But thankfully that era is essentially over and our Churches can - and MUST - keep a religious culture like the rest of our tradition.

Your question is, in my mind, like asking "should these Churches - who rejoined Rome - say that Rome is in heresy, in order to facilitate the reunion of the remaining Churches of their tradition"? I don't think there's any reason to do so, and I don't think that it would help reunion.


I would never go with it either. I do believe that to become Orthodox you have to essentially assent to the idea that the whole communion of Churches under Rome are more or less in heresy. I cannot bring myself to seperate from the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, or the Diocese of Arlington, through whom God has provided my so many gifts - including baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Eucharist. I cannot bring myself to essentially declare invalid St. Anthony of Padua and St. Thomas Aquinas, whose prayers have been plentiful and essential to me. I cannot declare that the great men John Paul II and Bendict XVI, though great Church leaders, cannot currently be in union with my Church because of profound questions about their full adherence to the orthodox faith.


As usual, if anything I've written regarding truths of the Catholic faith is wrong, I will immediately retract them if corrected by a clergyman or someone with a better understanding of the issue than I.

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JohnS. Offline OP
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To clarify, my question was prompted (primarily) by this thought ...

The Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch (EP) are set to meet in Turkey in November. What if the Orthodox asked the Byzantine Catholics to return as a step to union between East and West?

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JohnS,

Your clarification is very helpful. I love the saints of both lungs of the Church. I would never renounce them if that were the condition for going back to Orthodoxy. Therefore, the assumption would have to be that Western as well as Eastern Saints would be recognized and honored if we were asked to or "given back to" the Orthodox. In effect the reunion would have been consummated. Under those circumstances I would go. Anything less I would not. I cannot contemplate what I would do in part because the contemplation itself seems to be an occasion of sin. But then I can't imagine the Bishop of Rome would abandon us to oblivion. So I can't imagine that we would be asked to go unless it was as part of reunion.

CDL

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Any getting together of Churches can not be done in bits. The Catholic Church will naturally move in any direction as one Church.

ICXC
NIKA

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Saying that the Greek Catholics must return to their respective Orthodox mother churches as a prerequisite for restored communion (or even TALK of restored communion) would be akin to the Syriac Orthodox Church insisting that the Georgian Orthodox Church return to its fold before communion (or dialogue) is restored between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches.

Dave

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I think this is a good question to ask, but I also believe that only Cradle Byzantine Catholics should answer.

The reason is that converts to this beautiful faith, such as myself, tend to become over zealous from time to time, and consequently, if voting, could provide invalid data, since many become so pro-Eastern.

Is there any value in starting a "Pro-Eastern" campaign? We could use yellow and black ribbons since the Byzantine Flag is yellow with the Two Headed Eagle done in black.

Just a thought. :-)

Michael

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Union, in the mind of the Orthodox is the complete submission of the Catholic Church to the orthodox one. So this question had been asked in a very orthodox way (nothing wrong but remember that most of the people who will vote are in union with ROME). It should've been something like: Do you think the return of Byzantines to Orthodoxy would actually help union or not?

I voted no. The reasons are obvious. It would just make a few anti-Catholic bishops happy, that's all.

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Quote
Originally posted by MarkosC:

I would never go with it either. I do believe that to become Orthodox you have to essentially assent to the idea that the whole communion of Churches under Rome are more or less in heresy. I cannot bring myself to seperate from the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, or the Diocese of Arlington, through whom God has provided my so many gifts - including baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Eucharist. ding of the issue than I.
Well, I would not say that mainstream theological thought in Orthodoxy considers Catholcism to be in heresy but in schism from that unity that existed in the First Millenium mainly due to the understanding of the Papacy especially infallibility. I certinaly don't see Armando's view of Orthodoxy calling for the Catholic Churche's "complete submission" That might be the view of more radically conservative elements in the Church but not of mainstream Orthodoxy


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