www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese Of The USA

I agree that there is little hope of ACROD joining the OCA, however, I see the reasons differently. Far from being a canonical issue (they are both SCOBA) the history of the Johnstown diocese, when they returned to Orthodoxy in 1938, was that there were not many alternatives. "Neither to Rome, nor to Moscow" was the thinking. They feared a "Russification" of their churches, as had happened to some (but not all) of the parishes that returned to Orthodoxy under St. Alexis Toth.

Priest Thomas

Dear Remie,

"Monarchist over-glorification" - and your point is?

The Russian Royal Family are recognized as Saints by world Orthodoxy, am I not correct? All the Patriarchates directly participated and were present at the Glorification ceremonies in Moscow held in the year of our Lord 2000.

Monarchism is once more a real force in Russia, its culture, heritage and legacy are being reexamined and even celebrated.

So I don't really see too much difference between ROCOR and the MP over that.

I think that ROCOR has historically, and for then legitimate reasons, become quite a conservative group, exclusive, and very "Russian" in terms of its religious-cultural identity and praxis.

The OCA, on the other hand, appears to have adapted to the North American way of life, making membership among non-ethnic converts a comfortable and realistic enterprise.

I attended St Demetrios OCA parish in Naples, Florida when I was down there last.

The pastor was a former convert from Anglicanism and spoke with a British accent. The parishioners were mainly mixed marriages with Ukrainian, Serbian et alia.

But the icons were draped in traditional Ukrainian towels!

So I helped the Presbytera with the refreshments afterwards . . .

I wore my prayer rope and Father Pastor said that when I'm ready to embrace Orthodoxy, he would be honoured to do it himself.

What warm hospitality . . . I think . . .

Alex

I was looking at the Orthodox section in CNEWA website [cnewa.org] that Tony and others have pointed out. I'm very impressed. I didn't real all of them , of course. But, for a concise, gimme-the-facts presentation, it's really quite well done. For those who, at the beginning of this thread, were unclear about how the whole Orthodox Church is set up, this is a good place to go. The section on the American jurisdictions is also very good.

It should also be noted (sometimes I think it goes without saying, but the questions beg an answer) that Orthodoxy in America, with it's multiple jurisdictions, is certainly an abnormal, deplorable, and sad situation. However, the situation was created, not out of willful neglegence or desire for chaos, but simply out of the historical reality of two overlapping events, the Bolshevik revolution and the influx of large numbers of non-Russian Orthodox into America. The time of their arrival was precisely the time that the administration of the North American diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church collapsed. Hence, the multiple jurisdictions we have are a product of that era, not by design, but by circumstance.

Orthodoxy in organized (basically) geographically. The Church of Russia, the Church of Greece, the Church of Serbia, and so forth. The OCA, therefore, has used its autocephaly to assert the movement toward "the Church of America" by taking the name "Orthodox Church in America," purposefully not using the word "of" but reminding others of our destiny in this land. May God grant it.

Priest Thomas

Hi

I was listening to some of the MP3 files of Orthodox chant avaible in the ACROD site, Prostopinije chant.

And I noticed that most of them are sung in very common English and they say "your" instead of "thy", "you" instead of "thou", and they also say "cup" instead of "chalice".

Is this ok?

Dear Remie,

Why art thou so upset by this?

Alex

hehe not upset, I just got surprised. I haven't attended a Liturgy in the USA but most translations of the Liturgy in English I have seen are in the archaic style. Spanish, Eastern Liturgies I have attended are in "archaic" Spanish.

(yeah sometimes I realize I often sound like a medieval man :p )

The official ACRO(GC)D translations are in "you-your" language, and have been for a long time.

Why wouldn't it be okay?

-Dave

Another question:
It is my understanding that St. Alexis Toth left the same Byzantine Catholic group that would later lose more members to the Johnstown Diocese.
Is there a specific reason the Johnstown group did not join with Fr. Toth's group?
Thanks,
Sam

St Alexis (Toth) was received into Orthodoxy by the Russian bishop in San Francisco. The Carpatho-Rusyns who formed the ACROGCC feared Russification and wanted to preserve their distinctive Rusyn customs and especially the Prostopinije plainchant among other things. They felt that they could achieve this and still be connected to the universal Orthodox Faith under the Omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

[...to preserve their distinctive Rusyn customs and especially the Prostopinije plainchant...]

ahhhh!
Thanks Brian.

Well, the separation of Father Alexis Toth from the Byzantine Catholic Church occured many years before the separation of Father Orestes Chomock's group (ACROD). Father Orestes was quite aware of the problem of canonicity thet prevailed in the OCA, and he chose to become part of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, which has canonical rights over the faithful of the non-orthodox lands.

Remie,

At the time of the founding of the "Johnstown Diocese" there was no OCA. What would later become the OCA was still the "Metropolia."

Certainly there was confusion following the events of 1917. Among those sad results, the deterioration of the American situation by forcing the implementation of the trustee system in parishes so that American property could not be (or even attempted to be) seized by the by-then Communist government.

Regarding the ACROD, I never heard the "the problem of canonicity" mentioned in relation to their jurisdiction. The decision to approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate for jurisdiction was presented to me as being a reaction to what was perceived as "Russification" in the previous experience. Rome, in their estimation, was not respecting their customs and they feared that "Moscow" would not either, especially with regard to liturgical music. Hence the slogan, "neither to Rome nor Moscow!"

Tony

Bishop Orestes last name should be spelled
"Chornock".

Ung-Certez

And "Orestes name" should be corrected to read "Bishop Orestes's name."*

anastasios

* (some might suggest that it would be "Orestes'" without the second s but that would only be the case if Orestes were a plural noun.

Examples:

the boy's dog (the dog of one boy)
the boys' dog (the dog of two boys)
James's dog (the dog of James)

to further complicate the above, there are TWO exceptions: one does NOT add the second s with the specific name Jesus and Moses!

Jesus' dog
Moses' dog

English is crazy!)

When I was in elementary school we learned "James' dog" was correct and "James's dog" incorrect. The rule was basically there would never be -s's. Apparently that has changed, I like the old way.

Further there was no 's for pluralization, a familiy of people whose surname is Smith were "the Smiths."

Here is a link [webster.commnet.edu] .

Tony