www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Flight 93 victims honored with Muslim Crescent

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46256

I think it is safe to say that these victims were already "embraced by the crescent" in the form of Muslim fanaticism. I left a voicemail with the superintendent voicing my opposition to this symbol.

General Correspondence By Mail:

National Park Service
109 West Main Street, Suite 104
Somerset, PA 15501-2035

By Phone:

Superintendent - Flight 93 National Memorial
(814) 443-4557

By Fax:
(814)443-2180
http://www.flight93memorialproject.org/press.asp?area=doc

The article is right - the decision makers on this are either cruel or clueless.

Gordo

I must ask all of us on this day of remembrance to also remember that not every Muslim is a supporter of Osama bin Laden or is a terrorist. At tonight's candle light vigil where I live, there will be a good amount of Muslims with us and they are welcome, and two lost friends in Tower 1 that day!

Seraphim,

An excellent reminder. Let me only say that I posted this not to inspire animosity towards all Muslims (one of my son's best friends is a devout Muslim). Rather, I think it is a reasonable to object to the blatant use of a Muslim symbol in the very place where adherents to this faith (however extreme their belief) murdered others by deliberately crashing their plane into a field.

Were this a plane filled with Jews and had Christian fundamentalist extremists boarded it with the intent of killing themselves, the members of the flight and innumerable people on the ground and they met the same fate as the passengers on Flight 93, do you believe it would be fitting that the memorial be a large grove of trees in the shape of a cross, bearing the title "The Cross's Embrace"? The answer is plainly "No!". It would be regarded as the height of extreme idiocy and insensitivity on the part of the park service to even consider such a display. And Jews and Christians would be right in objecting to such a memorial, and I would still have called the superintendent to complain.

So, how is this any different?

Gordo

SERAPHIM41

Yes, but we must also remember that every Muslim is a lost soul.

I have to say, the designer and those responsible for the memorial display bad taste in having anything close to a symbol that may seem to glorify the hijackers. It is insensitive to the victims' families. It would be akin to having a memorial bearing a nazi swastika for the victims of the WWII holocaust.

Just very insensitive.

Father Anthony+

Father Anthony,

May I ask you a question regarding Orthodoxy? What is the position of the Church regarding Islam? Can a Muslim go to heaven? Am I even asking the right question?

I am reading "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Kallistose Ware. On page 107 is a quote from Aleksei Khomiakov which states,
If a Muslim is not a member of Orthodoxy then he is not a member of the Church, so that Muslim can't be saved?

Ray,

I will be honest with you, no one is beyond salvation unless so judged by God before His throne. If by rejecting our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ as the second member of the Trinity, means you are beyond being saved, yes I would say, though without any official authority, that they can not be saved.

Father Anthony+

Ray,
As a postscript, I really can not specifically quote any specific official pronouncement given by the Church. I would take Bishop Kallistos' pronouncement to be the official stance.

I would think the analogy might be closer to Japan's "rising sun".

I wouldn't doubt the ACLU is happy with the proposed design since they don't seem to recognise any familiar religious symbol in the design. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Steve Petach,
from the county that used to have a cross on its seal before the ACLU had it removed.

I must agree with Father's observation that the embracing Crescent is incrdibly insensitive. I don't know what ought to go there but I'm certain that a crescent symbol is terribly wrong and cruel.

Dan L

Just think of the family members, the artist decides to do his own tribute to Islam or whatever else he has in mind the point is the family memebers don't want to be reminded of the religion that played a direct role in the destruction of their loved ones life. This is utterly ridiculous and beyond poltical correcttion and just bizarre.
This would be like being Jew and having your family memebers killed in the holucost and having the nazi swastika as the symbol on your loved ones graves.

This is just plain sick. What else does the red crescent mean? Will Iraq and Afghanistan allow a cross-shaped memorial in their homelands? They will keep trying until every church has a minaret, our legal system adopts Islamic law, and every cross is taken down. The design implies: Ha, ha! We got you surrounded! We're closing in on you because Christians are divided and whimps; their leaders will just sit back. One year at a time.

After the Crescent is planted, then we can mount a cross in the middle of the design and raise pigs there.

Joe

Well before we start a new crusade, I think it needs to be rememberd it is not intended to be a Crescent of Islam moon but a broken circle, broken by the path of the downed jet. If victim's family members don't have a problem with it and in fact they served on the jury that selected the design I think we need to respect that and not read our own agenda into it.

"'I think people are reading too much into it,' said Kenneth Nacke, whose brother, Louis, died in the crash. 'It doesn't affect my decision on it in any way. I'm still happy with it.'

Gordon Felt, whose brother, Edward, died in the crash, called the focus on the crescent an 'unfortunate distraction,' from the fourth anniversary memorial service tomorrow at the crash site.

Still, he continued, 'It would be silly of us to have some sort of symbolism [in the memorial] that would be offensive to people.'

Eight family members served on the second-stage jury that selected the final memorial design."

Dear Friends,

Forgive me, but I don't see how that is a Muslim crescent.

If it is meant to be, then it would be offensive primarily to . . . Muslims, I would think.

For example, it was after the defeat of the Turks at Vienna (at which a relative of the Orthodox St Innocent Kulchitsky fought) that the "croissant" was developed as a deliberate means to offend Islam - "crescent" buns are still popular (I had some with breakfast yesterday, as a matter of fact).

Crescents were also used on Orthodox Crosses, instead of the foot-rest in many cases, to signify the defeat of Islam by Christianity as shown in Ray S.' avatar.

So IF, and as Fr. Deacon Lance points out is a big "if," the symbol was meant to be a crescent - it COULD remind people of who it was that committed the atrocities and the like.

Alex

Dear Friends,

One more thing . . . The Islamic Crescent and Star were, according to some, taken directly from Byzantine Christianity as symbols of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

They especially became popular after the Fall of Constantinople.

The crescent is a popular theme in many Western images and Eastern icons of the Theotokos and the Star represents her role as heralding the coming of the Sun/Son of God, the 12 Stars in the Crown of the Woman in Revelation with the moon at her feet.

Then again, the Star of David is considered to be a form of the Greek Cross in Christian heraldry . . .

Salaam!

Alex

As I was born and spent the first 30 years of my life about 15 miles down the road from the crash site of Flight 93, I've been following the progress of the permanent memorial over the last several years.

Yesterday, there was a memorial service at the crash site. The "Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" had an article about the service. What follows are several paragraphs taken from that article.

...The ceremony also paid tribute to the planned permanent memorial at the crash site.

Scale models and large posters depicting the design for the memorial, selected last week, were displayed at the front of the large white tent that housed the service here. Victims' relatives were unanimous in praising the proposal in interviews after the service.

"I really feel [the architects] did an amazing job," said Nacke. "It's a wonderful and fitting tribute to our families."

I agree 100% with Alex's and Deacon Lance's comments above. If the family members are not offended (and some even were part of the selection process), then leave it alone. It is too bad the word crescent was used in the name of the memorial, but take a look at the names of the other designs. The designs may have been respectable, but their names were either very trite, oversentimental, or just plain odd.

The newspaper was being kind when referring to the "local clergyman." His credentials and intentions are certainly suspect. Maybe he should turn his attention to the State flag of South Carolina. Now, there's a crescent if I ever saw one.

My prayers to all the families.

Thank you to Deacon Lance and to Alex for speaking some sense in this reactionary conversation...

OK let's move to the real design problem: cammas, echinacea, coreopsis, gallardia, buffalo grass. Do the designers know that Somerset is in western PA, not the plains? Sheesh!

Dear Ray S, my quote was: "NOT every Muslim is a supporter of Osama bin Laden or is a terrorist." One of my sons friends, a Muslim girl, has done a painting of the World Trade Center and in this painting she has painted every religious symbol, this girl believes it wasn't just Christians, Jews, Muslims, who died, she represented every faith on this planet for her remembrance of 9/11. I know some Muslims who lost family in the WTC that day and I'm not talking about the hijackers. In regards to that day, it was an attack on us, but as I have said and many others, an attack on the whole world by those who want to destroy the freedom others have. I meant no disrespect to the original post, having served in the military, I have seen man's inhumanity to man and I have seen a young Muslim girl who in her vision of 9/11 in her painting included the worlds religions.

Dear Ray S, you quote: every Muslim is a lost soul.

I prefer not to judge anyone, I, again, have seen man's inhumanity to man, so I leave it up to God to judge, just as he will judge me one day.

I am not judging anyone. The Church has spoken clearly for 2,000 years about those outside the Church. For 1,400 years She has spoken clearly about Islam.

Go to any good Orthodox site and read for yourself. Take for example this site: A Definitive Reply to Islam [orthodoxinfo.com]

Will some Muslims be saved? Probably but their faith is false and it impedes their salvation.

Don't forget the Church even in art has told us that Mohammed is in Hell and perhaps most of his followers. Take another example from the 600-year-old fresco in San Petronio cathedral in Bologna.

[Linked Image]

Also look at my avatar.

The most charitable thing to do for these people is to:
1. Live the gospel as an example of Christ.
2. Show them the true faith.

Please don't forget the Gospel from Last Sunday!
God saved the world through Jesus Christ not Mohammed.

Exactly so...God can save whomever He wishes to, and is not to be limited by man. It is very possible that there are many Muslims who are being called gradually to Christ, as in the example that James gave of his best friend's mother being interested in, and wanting to learn more about their icons of the Theotokos. (James, once again, may I compliment you on a very moving depiction).

In a situation like that, please, tell me...which will do more to attract someone to Christianity? Spitting over a monument? Being offended "on behalf of" the victims' families, who themselves were not bothered? Or guarding and protecting others not of your own faith, not just with your words, but with your own bodies, to preserve them from harm?

I know what speaks to me the most. Personally, I dislike the design of the memorial, as the design itself is not appealling to me (that open circle concept is just odd). Do I think it depicts Islam? No.

Can we get anyone up in arms about it because it is a grove, and smacks of paganism to have a "sacred grove"? (NO, PLEASE, I'M JUST KIDDING!!! Do NOT suddenly "realize" we are "glorifying pagans"...I made that up!)

I doubt that anyone intentionally said, "Let's honor Islam". That being said, this culture in America will be better off if we all learn to stop being offended "for" someone..whether the issue is race, religion, or animals.

I am guilty of judging others...we all do this to greater and lesser degrees. Fortunately, most of us simmer down (or, Heaven forbid, become talk radio hosts). When we try to view things from the perspective of the other side, we change our attitudes. Not our beliefs...but our attitudes. And it is attitude that makes the difference.

Gaudior, who thanks God for Seraphim, and for his son James...(James, please get your own ID, and post regularly, your words are of value to us all).....NOW...can we change the subject to...Imperial Torte?

Dear Friends,

Thomas Merton once said that Christ is ALREADY present in the various non-Christian nations around the world.

The job of the Christian missionary, then, is simply to point out to these Him Who is already there.

Comments?

Alex

Was the choice of a crescent nothing but poor taste? What if the US honors its fallen in Iraq with a cross-shaped grove? Though the cross shape might not mean a thing, you will certainly hear about it. Even the Red Cross had to be replaced with a Red Crescent on their vehicals in the Middle East. The cross truly offends some people. Even some Catholic schools, including Eastern Catholics ones, removed their crosses for the sake of the Muslim students.

Joe

After we bring Christ to those who failed to see him in their own religion, is the next job to convert them or do we just say, "Hey! Christ is in your religion too," and then move on? Does missionary work entail conversions/baptisms?

Joe

Dear Joe,

Did not the early Christian missionaries (and Apostles) try to relate Christ to the various religious/cultural systems they encountered?

Did not St Augustine say of the Greek pagan philosophers "They knew the Catholic faith?"

Alex

Dear Joe,

Is not against the law in your country to have a Cross or other religious symbol in public places INCLUDING state armorial bearings?

You shouldn't be so "cross" with the Muslims then!

Alex

Alex,

The scary thing is the ACLU is working hard to abolish the cross in any public place. They successfully had a tiny cross removed from the Los Angeles County Seal last year because of "religious" connotations the cross held and that some of their 'constituents' were offended by the tiny cross.

We are in a fight to keep from slipping down a path we may have a very hard time recovering from.

While the law never specifically states that there can be no religious symbols in public places, our courts have with the help of the ACLU decided against such symbols as the cross, though still favoring Islam and several other religions to the detriment of Christianity in the pursuit "equality".

Steve

An example of this can be found in Acts 17:22-23 when St.Paul spoke in the meeting of the Areopagus in Athens.

Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.


And after more explanation St. Paul concludes referring to the resurrection of Christ.

Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone -- an image made by man's design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead. Acts 17:29-31

To this (see Acts 17:32ff) some sneered, others wanted to hear Paul again on the subject, and a few became followers and believed.

In Christ,

Porter.

Ummm...Daniel, I don't see a "reactionary" conversation here.

The crescent has been associated with Islam for over 1000 years. Fanatical Muslims murdered the victims on Flight 93 that crashed into that very spot. This section of the memorial is called "Crescent of Embrace."

Again, the designers are either cruel or clueless.

My vote is that they are clueless. (I'm not a consipiracy theorist in this regard.)

As to the families of the victims, certainly their opinions should be given the greatest weight, since this is the place which holds the remains of their loved ones. They do, however, have the advantage of receiving detailed presentations and explanations of the symbolism of the "crescent"...and even some observed that the title "crescent" should be changed, since associations would naturally be made with the religious faith of the hijackers/murderers.

At the same time, it is also a national memorial. As an American, I have every right to express my concern that the most prominent feature of the memorial looks like the most prominent symbol of Islam. In the back of my mind, I cannot help but think that those who are responsible for or supportive of the attacks will see in this memorial a sign of triumph, and I would not want to risk giving them the satisfaction. Given the fact that the memorial design and intent is easily misinterpreted, I think it is only prudent that it should be changed.

No reaction here - just intuitive historical associations.

The swastika was treated as a religious symbol in the Christian catacombs of Rome. (When I made a pilgrimage to Assisi, I also saw it on the walls of the Church which houses the Portciuncula (sp?).) If you ever added this symbol to one of your icons (let's just say of St. Edith Stein, martyr in a Nazi concentration camp) treating it as a positive symbol in the image and giving it a place of prominence citing its historic Christian significance, would it be "reactionary" to object to the fact that the average person would more than likely NOT associate this symbol with early Christianity, but rather see it through the "lens" of National Socialism and the reign of terror of Adolf Hitler and his minions?

I think not.

Gordo

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46308

It appears that Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., has sent a letter to the Interior Department, asking officials to reconsider the "Crescent of Embrace" design due to the symbol's ties to Islam.

Let's hope his efforts coupled with the growing calls for reconsideration of the design win out.

Gordo