www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Emended Eastern Liturgies

A liturgical curiosity...Eastern (and a couple Western) liturgies "emended" for Lutheran use:

http://lutheranguy.com/liturgies/

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

What is more curious is the extent to which services are clipped and cut by those claiming to be Orthodox!

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

OOOH OUCH!!!

Good one, Father Mark!

Fr Mark,

I would agree with you but I think you read into the web site a bit much.

This is a web site run by an Evangelical Lutheran minister. These liturgies are " traditional Evangelical Lutheran worship service adapted for Western Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Old Catholic, Celtic Christian, and Traditional Anglican usage."

So this seems to be an Evangelical Lutheran's idea of something the Orthodox could use. At least thats how I read it.


David

I'm not commenting on the web site, but the liturgical tinkering of the Orthodox in their own services!

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Ah, but wasn't the tinkering done by this Lutheran minister himself and not by any Orthodox?

David

No, I am not commenting on the website at all! I am stating that the Orthodox do enough tinkering with their own services, cutting here and there, skipping a bit and some using a Greek typicon that is a farce and bares no resemblance to traditional Orthodox practice.

When, Where, Why and by whom would these be used? the Lutheran's?? why would they use an easternised service?

Dear Friends,

The Ukrainian Lutheran Kirche developed just before the Second World War when Ukrainian Catholics, mad at their bishops for one thing or another, joined Lutheranism.

That was the first time, I believe, that Lutheranism ventured into developing an "Eastern Rite" - and this church still exists with Lutheran missionaries over there promoting Lutheranism under the guise of icons and liturgical rubrics that resemble, but which are not, those of the Orthodox Church.

It would certainly not be the first time in history that this happened. The Scandinavian Lutheran Reformers, like Mikael Agricola, left the Catholic rites in place as they spread Lutheranism throughout that region.

Lutheranism is more tolerant of various "High Church" liturgical expressions than other Protestant groups.

At the same time, I too wonder for whom these services have been constructed.

Lutheranism under various Rites, perhaps? For what reason? As the question was asked, who would use them? Missionaries perhaps? But then why the Celtic Usage?

The reason this site is preposterous is that it presupposes that liturgy can be divorced from theology.

It is also offensive because it suggests that the same theology that gave rise to icons and the Byzantine spiritual culture can somehow be integrated with the totally different spirituality of the Lutheran churches.

It reduces icons, incense et al. to "quaint oddities" that are "frilly add-ons" to Lutheran worship, something to make Eastern Church converts more comfortable with etc.

The Lutheran pastor who constructed this website would have done much better to produce the actual liturgies of the various Orthodox and Catholic Churches without Lutheran revisionism - and to place, alongside them, the Lutheran service, all unchanged and as they are.

I think that if he did that, though, Lutherans might see the real theological meaning and beauty of the Apostolic Churches and perhaps think about turning to investigate them more closely . . .

Alex

They look like a vagante group, I think they are.

When, Where, Why and by whom would these be used? the Lutheran's?? why would they use an easternised service?

Well, like most Protestants Lutherans proselitize too, not like the other sects but they try to have missions. I know that in Ukraine there is a Lutheran Church which uses a "Byzantine" liturgy. They try to look like Orthodox and to protestantize them little by little. The methodists also try to buld churches that look like Russian in the outside, they're very clever.

Dear Friends,

I made mention of the Lutheran Church in Ukraine.

The site in question here is actually much more "Catholic" than they as they do commemorate Saints etc.

There is a Lutheran group in the U.S. that has adapted its liturgy to Orthodox requirements as well as other aspects of the Lutheran tradition.

I think that ultimately they would like to be a Western Rite of Orthodoxy.

This is the "Evangelical Catholic Church" that has a website with an Orthodox Cross over Luther's seal.

Alex

this seems underhanded and very surperfical form of religion when you need to trick people into attending your church. I think it is sad that a church would need to borrow from our rites in order to convert people, but i guess that is more proof of the power of our Rites, and who holds the True Faith.

Dear Polycarp,

To be fair to the Lutherans, they have produced a good many solid theologians who have written much on Eastern tradition - some of them have become Orthodox themselves as a result, like. Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan.

Many Lutherans are beginning to rediscover their lost Catholic heritage and are studying the various liturgical traditions of the Church.

We really don't know what the aim of this particular website is - I'm not sure and am certainly confused by it.

But the person who put it together did NOT cut out the veneration of saints in the liturgies which leads me to suspect he is a High Church Lutheran who may simply be out to set a bridge between Lutheranism and other liturgical traditions.

If he were a missionary, for instance, he would not have included the Celtic usage as much as he is since no great numbers are employing that tradition.

Alex

Yes, I'd have to say we are pretty dang clever!

Logos Teen

There is a method to their Methodism!!!