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Dear Brian,

So you are saying that helping the poor and visiting the sick is not part of traditional Christianity?

Even more to the point, which Church has shown a real practical social conscience - Catholicism or Orthodoxy do you think?

Listen, consider me to be your gauntlet on the road to Orthodoxy.

If you make it through, they'll not only declare you "Orthodox" but a "Confessor" as well.

Alex

Dear Steve:

Do you refer to the fact that some of our brothers and sisters have broken communion with the Pope because of unhappiness with liturgical Changes? That is indeed a crisis with which the Roman Church has been trying to deal. The Indult for the use of Tridentine Mass is one example. Some of those who self separated from our Communion have returned to that Communion. This is a cause for joy to us.


The problem is more complex than an indult, the thing here is the fact that maybe the small number of faithful who can attend the masses of the Fraternity of St. Peter might feel save in their chapels, but what about the rest of the thousands and thousands of other parishes? It is a matter of unity and faith, I certainly feel sympathy for those who support the Old Rite of Mass because the heart of the problem is not how mass is celebrated, it is not a matter of "fashion" or "aesthetical satisfaction of senses" but what people believe, what kind of cathechisms are taught, if the sacraments truly confer grace and santify the faithful, etc. I do not question the great efforts of the Pope to bring them to full communion, but it is also true that many indult parishes are no longer allowed to provide the traditional sacraments, and their Bishops clarified that their mission is to provide the Latin Mass for those who are attached to it, but not to provide the faithful with traditional sacraments, such as marriage, first communions, baptisms and often remind the faithful that they must support their local parishes, seek for sacraments there and even attend the cathechisms that are taught there. This is of course, not what John Paul II told the Bishops, he actually told them to be generous.

I have some comments about the response you wrote to Father Adam.

What leads you to make this conclusion? What Catholic theological opinion led you to it? It is hard to understand this coming from a priest who comes from the same Church that produced Pope John Paul II.

Maybe I would sound very polemic here, it isn't my purpose to do so, but I don't understand why some people say that to be Catholic it is impossible to be critical with some things that are wrong in the Church. We have seen how many Orthodox are very critical of their Patriarchs and Bishops, and how some brave Catholics have done the same. Being critical with them does not mean that we are againts the Church or against the spirit of unity. I ask you this. Do we have to blindly follow everything of what Church leaders do? Even if some things can be harmfiul for the Church itself? It is true that the Church is the Church of Christ, divinely instituted by him, and with a divine mission, but it is made up of men who can err and we are not requested to follow them blindly. I hope you don't think I am being disobedient, I have never thought aboput breaking communion with the canonical Church because I have no right to do that.

One of the thing that I find hard to understand about many Roman Catholics is the way things are often hiden or ignored. In spite of all the admiration and respect I have for Pope John Paul II and his great labour, the West is certainly not living a "springtime of christian faith". John Paul II himself has been quite critical about many things that are happening. Father Adam has done nothing but support the Pope in his defense of the traditional life of his Church, as many brave Catholics have done, and have been persecuted.

Dear Remie,

Thank you for your comments. They seem to be regarding two issues. I'll address them separately.

I.The Indult and the Crisis of the Self-Separated

I agree that the issue of the Indult for the use of the Tridentine Mass is not a complete solution to the needs of some of our faithful. Nor is the Society of St. Peter. The Pope has asked the bishops to issue the indult as they see the need.

Are they doing enough? I do not know. I am sure that those among us who have the need for more in regard to usage of the Tridentine Mass or the Old Ritual will have no problem presenting their desire to have their needs met. There may be other alternatives that will grow out of our current difficulties. This problem is indeed complex. In my opinion, it will not be solved by belittling and attacking what others hold most dear.

Like you I feel sympathy for those of our brothers and sisters who desire the use of what you call the Old Rite. However, I question any the solution that attacks the Novus Ordo. Recognition of its worth and efficaciousness and of its place in our Church has been required of all those who have self-separated from our Church when they restore communion.

The very fact that you suggest that there is some reason or right to question "if the sacraments truly confer grace and santify the faithful, etc." might illustrate the reason for the reluctance of bishops to do more. Might I suggest that not all of the difficulties are to be found in the behavior of bishops or the Roman Church?

Most Catholics do not question the reality of our Liturgy or of the sacraments as they are celebrated. I am not sure that, while this self-separation is a crisis for those involved, most Catholics share the views that you suggest.

If your are suggesting that the Pope and our bishops are working at cross purposes, you are entitled to your opinion. I cannot agree. They teach the same Faith and are working together to build the Body of Christ. They seem to me to be trying to address issues as they arise.

I believe that you are Orthodox. (Did I misunderstand?). If I understand correctly, it is acceptable for you to question the efficacy of our liturgy or sacraments or those of Churches which are not in communion with your own. You can question whether or not the liturgy and sacraments are grace-filled.

That is not an option for Roman Catholics! We believe that the sacraments are celebrated no matter what approved ritual is used. To teach that using the Old Ritual or the New Ritual causes the sacraments to be less effective is unacceptable among us.

I am grateful that you are interested in helping our Chruch resolve its difficulties. I am not sure how that is being done here, but you are certainly welcome to try.

I would ask though as I did above that you not repeat misinformation or present your perception of events and actions as facts.

II. My Conversation with Fr. Adam

Thank you for your comments about my conversation with Father Adam.

I believe that he understood what I was saying and asking and why. He did not take offense. I am not sure why you do.

Might I suggest that you find instances where I have done something inappropriate and then we can discuss it. Fraternal correction is certainly a good thing.

You did ask me questions.

"Do we have to blindly follow everything of what Church leaders do? Even if some things can be harmfiul for the Church itself?"

Of course not. I am not sure why you asked, but I hope that my answer is clear.

Asking and challenging, however, are two different actions. The one indicates prayerful seeking and questioning that assumes, at first, that those chosen by God to lead among the Churches have the best interest of the Church at heart until the opposite is proven to be true. The other requires a decision that those leaders are in error and leading the Chruch astray. That should be the last decision made, not the first assumption made. Don't you agree?

If you want answers to questions seeking reasons for your perceptions on the behavior of Catholics regarding criticism in the Church, that is a whole other topic.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Please pray for me and for the healing of all of the members of all of the Chruches who find pain in the teachings and practices of those Churches.

Steve

Hi

I am sorry. I didn't read the clarifications you made about the letter of Cardinal Ottaviani and the Roman-theologians study. Be sure that if I had known that some of what I said about the study was not accurate, i would not have repeated that.

believe that he understood what I was saying and asking and why. He did not take offense. I am not sure why you do.

No please, I was never offended or something like that, it was just an opinion.

it is acceptable for you to question the efficacy of our liturgy or sacraments or those of Churches which are not in communion with your own. You can question whether or not the liturgy and sacraments are grace-filled.

No no no , I have never never said that the sacraments are invalid or devoid of grace. . I have never supported groups who teach that because those groups have broken communion too, no Church leader has taught that Catholic sacraments are invalid or something like that and as an individual I have no right to question that.

We believe that the sacraments are celebrated no matter what approved ritual is used. To teach that using the Old Ritual or the New Ritual causes the sacraments to be less effective is unacceptable among us.

I was always taught that we believe the same too, plurality in rites and traditions has always been a reality and a unitary rite has never been a condition for unity, and I believe it is the same for the Mass of Pope Paul VI which is the rite that the vast majority of Western christians use, a Mass that has many positive aspects that could have worked for Church unity, such as communion under both species, three epistles, a clear epiclesis, an active participation of the faithful and a sense of community which is quite positive.

...I question any the solution that attacks the Novus Ordo. Recognition of its worth and efficaciousness and of its place in our Church has been required of all those who have self-separated from our Church when they restore communion.

When I refered to a Eucharist or sacraments that could be "devoid of grace" I was refering to those that are celebrated with desacration, but those are a small minority of abuses that are very serious, but a very small minority (and it was a Catholic, the disident ArchBishop Marcel Lefebvre, who pointed out that some of those sacraments that are performed with abuses, even if they are valid, may not confer grace ).

And this was also the way the Diocese of Campos returned to regular communion with the Roman Church, fully recognizing the validity and efficaciousness of the sacraments that are performed today when they are well celebrated.

Dear Remie,

Thank you for your clarification. I apologize for any misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what you were saying on my part.

I am not sure what you are talking about though when you say that sacraments or the liturgy are celebrated with desecration. How does that happen?

If I am not mistaken, the teaching in the Roman Catholic Church about the validity of the Sacraments and the Liturgy is that when they are celebrated with the essential parts, they are valid and are the source of Grace. I am not sure if that is what you mean by if they are celebrated well.

If you have information to the opposite by Catholic teachers in communion with Rome other than the opinion of Archbishop LeFebvre could you let me know who they are. I'd be interested in seeing that.

Thanks again for your response. Thanks, too, for hearing me out!

Steve

Dear, in Christ,

As this thread has departed from its original title (the Papacy), perhaps it should be closed.

It is possible to discuss any other topic, including social activity and responsibility, Liturgy, or anything at all, and I invite all to open such a discussion with an appropriate title.

Brothers, I am sorry if anyone has felt hurt or slighted by any question or discussion here. We try to avoid "ad hominem" discussions, prefering to discuss rather issues and questions of interest to all.

As we approach the time of the fast, let us all take up the words of the publican, and beg for mercy from God.

Let us also plead with one another for forgiveness, and readily forgive all for the love of God's sake, even as we hope to be forgiven.

Elias