www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall On Communities Admitted Into Orthodoxy. or Catholicism

Memo:

I don't think that the traditional Fraternity of St. John Vianey in Brazil can be compared with any of these un-canonical and heterodox groups such as the Order of Mans or any of the "independent jurisdiction" that have been recently converted to Orthodoxy and canonical thanks to the pastoral care of the AOC.

The Fraternity of Campos was founded by his Grace Antonio de Castro Mayer who was at that time very close to Mgr. Lefebvre. Not so long ago, Mgr. Licinio Rangel signed an agreement with Pope John Paul II and the Fraternity became a fully canonical prelature (it's the first time that the traditional Latin Rite is given a separate jurisdiction). The priests don't need any "permission" from local Bishops to celebrate the traditional sacraments and mass.

Dear Jim,

No, that is not what I have meant. I mean exactly what I said. The Christian life is a struggle.

Do you mean that all the Catholic Christians are perfect and there is never any type of strife, misunderstanding, or other in their midsts? I mean all we have to do is look to the Acts of the Apostles. People are people. We all stumble, make blunders, some big, some not so big. Just because someone embraces the Truth does not mean that from that time foreward he/she will act in perfect harmony with the Gospel.

Tony

People are imperfect. And the people of churches, can create problems for themselves by how the churches are administered all the way down to the local level. Problems I see in some jurisdictions occur less frequently in others because of the design/approach of their administration. There are benefits to organizational approaches of the east and the west. You seem to think that because I have pointed out some mixed results that I am attacking one church at the expense of another. Not at all. I am interested in additional recent cases of group receptions/conversions both east and west, how successful those conversions have been, and why. I note that I am unaware of such group receptions/conversions within eastern catholicism itself, however.

Dear Memo and Remie:

Just a correction.

The Society of St. John Vianney (of Campos, Brazil) is not a personal (Memo) or "canonical" (Remie) PRELATURE.

The Holy See merely granted the Society the status of a "Personal Apostolic Administrature" in the territory of the diocese of Campos.

The first, and only thus far, PERSONAL PRELATURE of his Holiness is the OPUS DEI, which we have discussed extensively in this Forum.

AmdG

Dear Friends,

Certainly the Antiochian Orthodox Church was and is the pioneer in religious/cultural adaptation.

I attended their Toronto Conference some years back, took the day off work as a matter of fact, it was not to be missed - and I wasn't disappointed!

There I attended their Western Rite meetings led by the more than capable Fr. Schneirla.

They have two Western Rites, St Gregory for former RC's and St Tikhon for former Anglicans.

I spoke with Western Rite Orthodox priests who actually DO go around getting store front churches to join them!

They have Old Roman Catholics, Old Catholics etc. who were interested and who joined Orthodoxy.

There was a group of concerned Anglicans who came to say they had to leave Anglicanism since they were going to get a woman "Bishopess" (their words not mine).

There were Roman Catholics who came for an information session and who I could tell had begun sliding down that slippery slope toward Orthodoxy . (I had to leave a bit early as I felt a severe attack of it coming on myself )

When I rose to speak, I expected to perhaps be heckled as a "Uniate" or what-not .

To my pleasant surprise, I was treated with great respect, and I was accepted for what I was - period.

"Conversion" for them was something that the Spirit did - not something that could be forced or cajoled.

There were Evangelical Orthodox among them as well - nothing Protestant about them and there were many Eastern Orthodox pastors who wanted the Ev. Orth. to come and visit their parishes with bible studies/retreats!

As for Remie's point on Lutheranism, there actually IS a Lutheran Rite that would like, I believe, to eventually join with the Antiochian Orthodox Church. The Anglican Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church are also in discussions with them.

I'm pleased to have worked with a number of Western RIte Orthodox friends with Western Rite parish projects.

Being Latinized can be a benefit sometimes, you know!

Alex

Hi

I read that there's a group of Lutherans in Ukraine that created an Divine Liturgy, adapted from the Liturgy of St. John Chrisostom but shortened, and eliminating the parts of the Anaphora that are "too orthodox" and the prayers for the Virgin and the Saints (in a certain way it looks a little bit like an Eastern Rite "Novus Ordo"). They have the Julian Calendar too and many Orthodox traditions.

The Polish National Catholic Church was, if I am not mistaken, in communion with the C of E and with broke with it after the Anglicans had the great idea of ordaining women. The Roman Church also considers their sacraments valid and allows their members to take communion in Roman parishes, it is probable that they will be received in the RC, from what I know.

I believe that the PNCC WAS in discussions with the Antiochians, but, if I remember hearing correctly, they ceased discussions after the Antiochians just offered to make them part of the Western Rite, with their bishops being archpriests or something akin to that. Rome gave a better "deal" relationship wise, since they recognize the sacraments and orders of the PNCC, and allow intercommunion on some level. I also know of cases of Eucharistic concelebrations between RC and PNCC clergy.

It's a small world after all!

-Dave

I like what I see coming out of SSPX. I believe that they will be look upon with esteem in the future.

Hi:

Well, what I saw coming from them is persecution. If they'd managed to make martyrs out of us, I would probably look upon with esteem.

Since they were willing to fight, and since One True Church won the fight, the most I can manage is compassion. Esteem is still a little beyond myself.

Shalom,
Memo.

Well, what I saw coming from them is persecution. If they'd managed to make martyrs out of us, I would probably look upon with esteem.

Since they were willing to fight, and since One True Church won the fight, the most I can manage is compassion. Esteem is still a little beyond myself.

Shalom,
Memo.

Repression and persecution worked both sides do you know that? Maybe the SSPX would not have been intolerant if Villiot and the French liberal Bishops hadn't done so much damage and difamation againts it when it was still in "regular communion" with the Roman Pope.

Yea I've talked to people who tell me that the SSPX seminaries have a kind of "soviet-like" environment and that priests are always under vigilance and suspicion. Priests have told me something like "if things go on like this we'll have to leave". Among this groups it is often forgotten that the important thing is to be loyal to their Latin Mass, their tradition and the traditional Sacraments and not a blind and exclusive loyalty to the SSPX.

But why does the existence of traditional catholic groups bother you, modern Catholics, so much? After all you've got thousands and thousands of parishes for your services and they are all yours, so why don't you let the Latin christians to have their communities too?

Why do you want everybody to be exactly like you? The spirit of John Ireland is still present with those attitudes, that try to homogenize people by force. Many Eastern Christians left communion with your Church because of that. And now, many Latin Christians are also breaking with it nowadays because they can't stand these attitudes.

Dear Remie,

I wouldn't speak to Roman Catholics too much, if I were you.

Latinization by osmosis, or something like that.

Yes, I can never figure them out either!

Alex

Dear Chtec Dave,

So that's what happened with that project!

Ah, well . . .

There was a PNCC parish around here somewhere that I heard joined the RC Church - with their married priests et alia.

I also think that this has something to do with a common nationality they share with the Big Guy/Papiesz in Rome!

The only real difference is that PNCC sacramental theology lists Baptism and Chrismation as one sacrament and the Bible as the seventh sacrament . . .

And they have in their calendar Savonarola (whose canonization process is underway at Rome), Jan Hus (whose rehabilitation process is moving forward) and some others.

In their previous talks with the Antiochians, they removed the "Filioque" from the Creed in their liturgy . . .

But when you want to be one with the Pope, these aren't insurmountable obstacles.

Alex

Hello:

No, I don't know that. The only thing we did was to clearly defined that those who were following Archbishop Lefebvre in our Archdiocese, would have to decide to come back to the fold, or follow him in his excommunication as well.

And this we did only after they themselves issued a "With them or with us" kind of ultimatum involving several Catholic movements in good stand with the Church.

After we held them to their own position, the faithful saw the true sectarian intentions of the SSPX, and the society in our Archdiocese all but died in a few months.

We never threatened anyone with the use of physical force or with unlawfully destroying their educational records. Those were their tactics, not ours.

I have NOTHING against the Traditional movement, if it is a legitimate expression of the Catholic faith, a faith that implies faithfulness to the Roman Pontiff, and the acceptance of all the approved rites of the Latin Church.

I will have EVERY concern possible with movements that threat, attack and deceive the Catholic faithful into their sectarian interests. Just because they are "traditional", it doesn't mean they are any better than any other of the destructive cults out there.

Shalom,
Memo.

We never threatened anyone with the use of physical force or with unlawfully destroying their educational records. Those were their tactics, not ours.

I cannot support what they did, I certainly understand you and you have expressed legitimate reasons. I have also been threatened with my educational records by reasons that are entirely secular. I got surprised when I saw that those who attacked you that way had to do with the SSPX. Those sectarian tactics are there very present, like in their seminaries, everubody is under suspicion.

The only thing we did was to clearly defined that those who were following Archbishop Lefebvre in our Archdiocese, would have to decide to come back to the fold, or follow him in his excommunication as well.

Come back to the fold? Yes but in what terms?

The way irregular Orthodox groups (Old Believers with the ROCOR or the MP, Western Rite with the Antiochians) have been received: with their parishes, their priests, their rites and their traditional sacraments differ very much from the model you list as "come back to the fold" without any guarantee of respect.

It was clear that the Bishop of the Archdiocese (of Guadalajara, right?) at that time, and all the Bishops of Latin America do not stand for the indult that the Pope generously gave to the traditional Latin christians. So they must have come back to the fold by getting rid of their particular tradition, their traditional catechisms and so on?

To me, being in communion with the One True Church far outweighs any attachment to any liturgical expression. I realize that many/most of the people on the board don't feel that way, but I do. I believe that truth is objective and we are sometimes divided from it through our subjective emotions (like attachments to a certain liturgy). This is not to say that such attatments aren't understanble, after all we're only human, but that doesn't make it acceptable. My two cents.

Generally, the refusal of some bishops to allow the Tridentine Mass in their diocese infuriates me, although I realize there are a few isolated extenuating circumstances.

Logos Teen