www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall On Communities Admitted Into Orthodoxy. or Catholicism

Some background: I am aware of various denominations, churches, and cults that have been received into orthodox jurisdictions in recent years in the U.S. (Evangelical Orthodox into Antiochean Archdiocese, Holy Order of MANS into the OCA and Serbian Archdiocese, for example). The more I read, the more I become aware that orthodoxy's claim to unity is somewhat misleading (Old Believers versus Russian Orthodox, True Church of Greece versus churches under the EP, etc). The history of Eastern Catholics in America has its own potholes, of course.

My question is this: Have Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in America encountered groups, churches, etc. interested in being received? If so, I would like to know the outcome. Group reception appears not to work very well, because the groups tend to retain their views instead of adopting new views as individuals, IMHO.

Old Believers vs. Russian Orthodox: Russian Orthodox are in communion with world Orthodoxy.

True Orthodox Church of Greece vs. State Church of Greece: State Church in communion with world Orthodoxy.

Old Catholic Church of Utrecht vs. Roman Catholic Church: Roman Catholic Church holds Vatican and unbroken papal succession.

SSPX vs. Roman Catholic Church: Roman Catholic Church follows Pope that both sides claim to accept.

SSPV vs. Roman Catholic Church: Yes, Virginia, there *is* a Pope!

Liberal Catholic Church vs. Roman Catholic Church: Roman Catholic Church held to true faith.

Both Churches have disunity, but each side has established a criterion for who is legit and it is not hard to figure out who is the legit side!

anastasios

Dear-to-Christ Jim,

I don't really understand your point about the Orthodox Church receiving into the flock former non-Orthodox, I mean isn't that part of the whole idea? "Go ye into all the world...." Did I miss something?

You mention several non-canonical/schismatic Orthodox groups yet fail to mention Catholic schismatic ones. You are creating a false dichotomy, RCism has had its share of the same: the Polish National Catholic Church, the Lefebvre/SSPX, the Old Catholics to name but the better known ones.

Other than the old Greek Catholic/Orthodox flip-flopping, the "community" that comes to mind of non-Eastern Catholics that became Eastern Catholics is the Melkite community in Augusta, GA. If memory serves me they were all Episcopalians previously. From what I can recall what is now New Skete started out Roman then became Byzantine then Orthodox.

Regarding "adopting new views," certainly the entire Christian life is a struggle, why should this be different?

Tony

Jim,

I think your question on unity is a fair one worthy of discussion. I fail, however, to understand what the way various groups that have been received into Orthodoxy have to do with it. I am sure that not all members of the groups you mentioned completely embraced Orthodoxy but, still, I fail to see the connection.

Your points on the apparent disunity among the various Orthodox Churches (Old Believers versus Russian Orthodox, True Church of Greece versus churches under the EP, etc), are fair but the disunity here is not one of theology and belief but rather one of administrative structure. This point alone would be a good discussion and it�s great that you raised it.

I am unaware of �group receptions� into the Byzantine Catholic Church but there is a steady stream of people who choose to become Byzantine Catholic. You are right to point out the potential pitfalls of �group receptions� but I think the main problem would lie in they type and extent of catechization of those who were received.

Admin

If you want to have some fun with the "hall of shame" and see all these "Orthodox-Catholic Churches": sects who ordain women, gay churches, Ukkrainian Western-Rites, the hoomies, the church of white people and so on.

http://a_g_green_jr.tripod.com/OtherOrthodox.html

About the Evangelical Orthodox who ere received in the AOC, I'm sure that the Bishops of the AOC had the best intentions when they allowed these groups to join the Orthodox Church. I just hope they had really converted to Orthodoxy and totally left Protestantism, and not only turn their parishes into Lutheran Eastern Rite churches, this would be very bad.

FWIW, the OCA received the remaining Evangelical Orthodox communities (those who did not join the Antiochian Archdiocese) in the past few years. I served at one of the churches in Nicholasville, KY, and they are wonderful people. There were so many kids I was tripping on them.

Priest Thomas

Fr. Thomas and the other posters have surfaced a real issue.

That is: if someone is baptized, he/she has the potential to be a member of a community. Some communities follow pretty standard Apostolic guidelines, while others are truly "storefront" churches in which the faith-structure depends upon the prevailing winds.

The question is: how do we deal with an individual who is truly a "seeker" and allow that person to come to an understanding of his/her salvation. How much of "our church" must the person accept in order to "be saved" vs. what spiritual reality does this person have that will bring him/her to the Lord?

I tend to be more "liberal" on this question (quel surprise!!) and suggest that the individual seeker work with a legitimate spiritual director to determine what is the next step.

In sum: Leave folks alone with the Holy Spirit to determine the next step.

Blessings!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony:
[QB]Dear-to-Christ Jim,

"I don't really understand your point about the Orthodox Church receiving into the flock former non-Orthodox, I mean isn't that part of the whole idea? "Go ye into all the world...." Did I miss something? "

I am alluding to the method of absorbing groups. Some methods have been more successful than others. Some clergy appear to have been received or re-ordained without formal seminary training, for example, which can lead to all sorts of problems. Some parishes have also undergone internal conflicts where harmony prevailed before.

"You mention several non-canonical/schismatic Orthodox groups yet fail to mention Catholic schismatic ones. "

My point was not to provide an all-inclusive list, but to present a scenario from which to ask my question.

"Regarding "adopting new views," certainly the entire Christian life is a struggle, why should this be different?"

If I understand you correctly, then conflict within the church ought to be expected or even encouraged. I disagree. Is that what you meant?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Administrator:

"the disunity here is not one of theology and belief but rather one of administrative structure. This point alone would be a good discussion"

I agree. I do not question the need for the reception of converts. I do wonder what is being done to handle the process more effectively, regardless of jurisdiction.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr John:

"The question is: how do we deal with an individual who is truly a "seeker" and allow that person to come to an understanding of his/her salvation. How much of "our church" must the person accept in order to "be saved" vs. what spiritual reality does this person have that will bring him/her to the Lord?

In sum: Leave folks alone with the Holy Spirit to determine the next step."

Unfortunately, that doesn't work as well in parish communities as it does in monasteries, or for more coenobitic (sp?) types (Way of the Pilgrim, etc.). A monastic spiritual advisor often doesn't have parish politics to contend with.

My apologies for my editing procedure. I haven't fully absorbed the Forum's options for this yet. I'm also on Mountain Standard Time, which puts my replies behind for many of you.

Only speaking as a priest in the OCA, there is no set guidelines for preparations to enter into the faith in our jurisdiction. I think experience shows us, however, that allowing someone to enter hastily is not helpful to them or the community. However, I admittedly tell you that I have several parishioners who (before my arrival) entered the faith in a very pro-forma way, one because he wanted to marry a girl from the Ukraine. However, to my amazement, today he is one of the most faithful members of the parish and is only now (after three years of being Orthodox) receiving his "catechumenate" regarding the doctrines and practices of Orthodoxy. But I would say he is the exception to the rule.

I do believe that some people take longer, some not so long. Some people go to church for years, many years, before converting. Some never do, and some enter fairly soon, after maybe three or four months. I do worry about those who have not been catechized for much time. We recently have someone who converted fairly quickly (five or six months) but we also have a seeker who will most likely take years to convert, if she does at all, because she wants every question answered before she moves on. That's just her style. If she was pushed into a quicker timetable, she wouldn't feel comfortable.

There are some things that may take more time for someone to grow into, even after they've converted. Certainly, one must accept without reservation, the doctrines enumerated in the Creed, but I've heard of some who had to warm up to things like venerating icons even after they converted. I would think that things like not believing that one receives grace in the sacraments would be a deal-breaker (at least from my POV). Once again, I think every situation is different.

I posted in another area, Fr. Hopko's article on what is necessaryto receive communion. This might be a good starting point for someone entering the faith also. It's about halfway down the post at https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001888;p=2

Priest Thomas

Dear Jim:

A good example for tracking reception of ecclesial communities, i.e., entire parishes, is the pastoral provision granted by the Vatican to Anglican (and Episcopalian) parishes.

By insituting the "Anglican Use" sub-rite in the Roman Church, a smooth transition has provided entire parishes a simpler road to conversion, as in the case recently involving the entire Episcopalian parish centered at the Church of the Good Shepherd in Columbia, SC.

This replicates previous "entire parish" conversions of Episcoplians (Anglicans)in Texas, California, Massachussetts, and elsewhere.

AmdG

The priest of the Antiochian Orthodox parish I attended this Sunday, with whom I just got off the phone, was one of the founders of the Evangelical Orthodox. He said they "didn't know any better" when they started it. They were rejected by all Orthodox jurisdictions until finally Antioch accepted them.

This priest's church is in every way an Orthodox parish, nothing Protestant about it. The priest is also quite obviously enthusiastic of the Orthodox faith.

Logos Teen

Hello:

I'd like to say that the Roman Catholic Church has even recently received such groups.

No more than a couple of years ago, we received a Brazilian SSPXer Bishop together with the better part of his flock. The Pope created a Personal Prelature so that the Bishop could continue tending his flock.

The Personal Prelature, of course, is a very traditional one, using the 1962 Missal, etc.

I don't know how is this working in reality, but in theory, the Union should have little if any impact in the every-day affairs of this community of faithful.

Shalom,
Memo.