www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Saint Spyridon or our Lady of Guadalupe?

Francisco,

We have not dropped St. Spyridon from the calendar, but moved him to Dec. 11. The Feast is very popular in the Eparchy of Van Nuys, where we have many people of Hispanic origin. This Eparchy was the first to adopt it, and since the Virgin of Guadalupe is the Patroness of America as well as the Pro-Life movement here the Metropolia decided to adopt this feast. Rather than a latinization this is an example of authentic aculturation. By the way, we are on the Western Paschalion and the Gregorian calendar. We have also added St. Francis, St. Clare, St. Benedict, St. Scholastica, and St. Therese of Lisieux because we have Byzantine Franciscans, Benedictans, and Carmelites. This does not mean we do not respect our tradition but that we a unique history that is our own and have had different developments than our Orthodox brothers. I am disappointed by your attitude, which is very condescending. Restoring tradition is proper, but we can not ignore our past or current historical context.

In Christ,
Lance

I have noticed a new trend here at the forum, one that I really don't care for.

This "new" trend is for others, either outside of the Catholic Church, or outside of a particular "sui juris" church, passing judgement upon who should be appointant bishops, or which feast days are correct.

This is getting old fast.

David

I agree. Our "mother Orthodox" Churches have always added regional Feasts. Look at the current Russian calandar. What's the problem?
I don't feel we would be traditionally Eastern if we didn't.

Dmitri

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that ORTHODOX Mexicans (and non-Mexicans, too) also venerate the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe. And this isn't just on an "unofficial" home-veneration level. The image appears in churches, etc; even in the OCA cathedral in Mexico City, if my sources are correct.

I don't know if they liturgically celebrate the feast.

I wouldn't disparage the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics for celebrating this image, especially if the Orthodox in Mexico do so as well.

On a side note, I've seen where the feast of an icon of the Mother of God takes precedence over a saint. Several years ago, I was attending Vespers at St. Tikhon's Monastery on the evening of June 25. My patron saint is David of Thessalonika, whose feast is the 26. I expected to hear the propers for Saint David. Well, I was wrong. Everything was for the Tikhvin Icon.

-Dave

And St Romanos the Melodist (patron of cantors) gets tromped on ny the Exaltation of the Holy & Life Giving Cross.

(I don't think he really minds....)

Sharon

I repeat what I posted that day:

As for what Orthodox people think, I have to say that as Orthodox christians, people are not obligated to believe in the Apparitions but there's nothing that explicitly forbides to believe in them.

There are various opinions (and such plurality of opinions exist among Catholics too!) I have met some "angry" converts to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism who are opposed to the Apparition and say it is just manipulation and by ther Spaniards. But there are also lots of Orthodox who in fact believe in it, and at the same time there are some Bishops of the Catholic Church here who not only reject the Apparitions but deny the existence of St Juan Diego.

I believe that the most important think about Our Lady of Guadalupe is the icon itself, and I have met Orthodox priests here who encourage the devotion to the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and some invited priests from other countries have asked about the miraculous icon.
As for the Apparition, there's nothing in its content that could invite false interpretations or one-sided and partial views (like in the recent Apparitions), but I think we have to give it a propper and fair place without exagerating. The most important thing is that it is an icon of Our Blessed Mother.

Yes it is true, there are many Orthodox parishes with icons of Our Lady of Guadalupe, including the OCA Cathedral.

There's not an "official" liturgical celebration of Our Lady of Guadalupe in the Orthodox Church (but I think there is an Akatist, If im not mistaken). It is not an official fest as in the Latin Church, and there's no official recognition of the Apparitions for example (because of the reasons I listed before)

Dear Friends,

When it comes to Guadalupe, the term is "icon" -

NOT I CAN'T (venerate her, that is)

Back to writing that Akathist.

Alex

I am very glad that we do observe the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It is part of our developing heritage/tradition in the New World.

And it is more that a regional feast. She said she was Queen/Empress of the AMERICAS. Those of you who have been to the shrine in Mexico City know that on both sides of the main altar are flags of all the American countries: North, Central and South America.

Dear amonasticbeginner,

You said that “the Feast of our Lady of Guadalupe is part of our developing heritage/tradition in the New World”. The Feast of Guadalupe has do with the thriller of the Spanish Conquest of America (and specially of Mexico), a part of the history of my country of which we, Spanish, do not feel specially proud. The name of our Lady of Guadalupe is not American at all, the Spanish took it from the sanctuary of the Virgin in the village of Guadalupe in Extremadura, very near to the born place of Hernan Cortes (of ill memory for most Americans). This sanctuary of the Virgin (which celebrates its feast on 8 September) has got a wood carved image of the Mother of God who is said by some people to be work of Saint Luke. The Franciscan are now in charge of this sanctuary, formerly in was in the hands of the Jerome Friars, a Spanish order linked with the Spanish Royal family. The name of Guadalupe tells us about the Spanish imperialism. For Mexicans our Lady of Guadalupe has to do with the thriller of the evangelization of the native Mexican and the particular election of the Mexican nation by God. In Mexico there is something called “guadalupismo” or Phenomenon of Guadalupe that drives even atheists (do not forget that Mexico was officially a secular country till the last elections) to believe in the apparition of our Lady of Guadalupe. The Panamerical character of the devotion of our Lady of Guadalupe you talk about, is not a so ancient idea. There are a lot of national devotions of the Mother of God in America (Virgen del Cobre in Cuba, Nuestra Senyora de Lujan in Argentina…). So that the devotion to our Lady of Guadalupe is not so Panamerican as you say. You said that the Virgin said that she “was Queen/Empress of the AMERICAS”, are you sure that the Virgin said that, probably what the Spanish wanted the Virgin to say was that “Spain was Queen/Empress of the AMERICAS”. So the devotion of our Lady of Guadalupe has not much to do with the history/tradition of the Eastern Catholics of Byzantine tradition in the New World. Alexis Toft and John Ireland, and not the Virgin of Guadalupe, are part of your history of your tradition in the New World. If you want to celebrate the feast of an icon of the Mother of God which is part of the story of the Eastern Christians in the New World why do not you celebrate for example the feast of the icon of our Lady of Sitka? Is our Lady of Sitka too Russian or too Orthodox for you? Why a Mexican Catholic icon and not a Russian Orthodox one? Is the Virgin Catholic or Orthodox? Which nationality is she, Spanish, Mexican, Russian? It is interesting to observe the role played by the devotion to the Mother of God in the origin and development of the national identity of different countries.

Your in Christ,
Francisco

Most Holy Mother of God pray for us!

Dear Francisco,

The name "Guadalupe" is a Spanish version of the Aztec term for she "who crushes the serpent" and relates to the victory of the Mother of God over the serpent-god the Aztecs worshipped.

Following the miracles of Guadalupe, millions of Aztecs became Christians.

As for imperialism, Spain is not the only country who participated in that. It is a complicated issue that I don't want to get into here. Our Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches are themselves "Imperial Churches" and that culture has also influenced our very liturgy and church architecture, including the neck crosses Orthodox priests wear etc.

Alex

Dear Alex, please have a look to this site about the story of the Sanctuary of our Lady of Guadalupe (Spain): http://www.solt3.org/guadalupespain.htm , You will see that the word Guadalupe is Arabic.

Dear Francisco,

Arabic, Spanish or whatever - it is ultimately an adaptation of the Aztec term for "she who crushes the serpent."

We have many similar terms in Canada, European in origin, that are corruptions of Indian terms that are unpronounceable.

I once did a 150 page study on this historical phenomenon, including the Shrine of Guadalupe.

Alex

I think the Ruthenian solution for the resolution of the two feasts is acceptable. There is also nothing wrong with a dual commemoration, not uncommon for those who pray regularly with the Menaion. Either way works. We're all about economia in the Christian East.

I love both feasts. Being a shepherd (albeit part time) I have devotion to St. Spyridon, who often preferred the hills and flocks to the commomotion of his diocese. Something about sitting with your sheep to put things in perspective...

Dear Don,

It is not just a rumor, it is a fact! The feastday of Our Lady of Guadalupe is an official liturgical feastday at Mt. Tabor Monastery in Redwood Valley, CA. The monks celebrate the office and Divine Lliturgy of Our Lady of Guadalupe. They composed a beautiful tropar and kondak for liturgical use.
When I was visiting the monastery, I saw that a couple of the monks had the image of OL of Guadalupe on their monastic habit. A copy of the Guadalupe image is enshrined in the monastery chapel. A few years ago, some of the monks went on pilgrimage to the basilica in Mexico City.

Other Byzantine Catholic parishes have celebrated the feast:

1) The Melkite parish in Illinois has a large Latino congregation and do celebrate the feast. The Melkite publication, "Sophia", states that the parish did a play on the apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

2)The Russian Byzantine Catholic parish in Los Angeles, CA celebrated the feast when Dec. 12th fell on a Sunday. It was the first time that several of the prayers in the Divine Liturgy were sung in Spanish. A copy of the Guadalupe image is enshrined in the church

3)At the Russian Byzantine Catholic parish in San Francisco, the former pastor united the feastdays of Our Lady of Guadalupe (Dec. 12) with the feastday of the repose of St. Herman of Alaska(Dec 13th) to form the "Synaxis of the Americas". It was never celebrated liturgically, but it was at least recognition of the feast.

It is entirely possible that other non-Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parishes observe the feast or at least have an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe enshrined in their churches.

Dear Griego,

I have also known Russian Orthodox who venerate the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Positive articles on this image appear in Orthodox journals from time to time as well.

Alex