www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Heartbreaking news from Indonesia

By AsiaNews:

Rest of the story:

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=6914

Amado

The death penalty is evil.

So is the massacre of 200 people, if it is true that the men are guilty.

Nevertheless, that does not warrant a death penalty.

Logos Teen

They may shoot them but have done very little in regard to the men who organised and supported the people who did the Bali bombings and the other bombings in Jakarta. Sentences have been reduced and people let go. Indonesia remains what it has always been and that is very corrupt (also a very artificial country).

I'm not saying they did this - from the article it sounds like they may have been falsely accused.

But re: the crime itself - if massacring 200 people doesn't warrant the death penalty, what does?

killing someone to show that murder is a horrible crime has always seemed strange to me. But i believe as a matter of principle that the state has no right to take life in all circumstances like abortion paid by the state or the death penalty

It might *seem* strange to most of us, but it is NOT the Church's position that capital punishment is forbidden. It is, in fact, that the state can, and sometimes does, have the *obligation* to protect its people by taking a guilty life......if there is no other way to protect that public. The Papal comment so often indicated as an infallible statement on the subject did not even in itself state that capital punishment is always wrong. JP2 stated that capital punishment ought to be an exceedingly rare thing, and only when there is no other way to protect the rest of society.

Some might wish to debate just when and under what circumstances it might be impossible to protect society otherwise, and I have no problem with that. There ought, in fact, to be much more of the debate over THAT rather than simply throwing out the claim that it is always forbidden by the Church - a statement untrue.

By all means, debate the whys and hows of protecting society so that no death penalty ever need be imposed. I would enjoy nothing better. But the constant refrains that it is prohibited is misleading and ultimately creates more evil than it prevents.

Staro

The death penalty is not against church teaching. I think JPII sometimes held views that were not always in agreement with his predecessors. But he did realize that in some instances the death penalty is permissable. However, I have personally opposed the death penalty since I was a young teenager - that's many years, now. So it wouldn't matter to me anyway, I would still oppose it. My own state spent enough money on appeals for one criminal over such a long period, he could have been kept in a luxury suite for life and it would have been cheaper.

Dear byzanTN,

There are two reasons for the death penalty. One is that it is a deterrent to crime. During the 1930's when the Linburgh baby was kidnapped and killed the death penalty was enacted and kidnapping immediately stopped. Now the second reason for the death penalty would be expense. I can see no other reason for it.

As far as I'm concerned, all prisoners should make retribution. They should work at an average wage, make products and sell them and by so doing, pay off all the expenses they have caused the state and the victims. In other words, they should pay for the amount of time the judge spent on trying them, the amount of time the police spent in apprehending them, and the amount they cost the victim.

The problem though is that the companies that provide the services, including the unions, etc., do not want prisoners taking away their jobs and profits. The way I see it, if the prisoners work at a competitive or equal rate, why not have them learn the trades of the outside world. It will make them better suited for life after jail.

Zenovia

If I may redirect the focus of our discussion on the death penalty imposed on these 3 Indonesian Catholics.

The issue is not the propriety of capital punishment in today's world or if it is condoned or condemned by the Catholic Church.

The State, in this case, Indonesia, has all the rights to have or not to have the death penalty for capital crimes. That is internal.

What is at issue is: Are the 3 Indonesian Catholic men guilty of the crime charge beyond reasonable doubt?

Reading the reports since the beginning of this saga point to their innocence because there is reasonable doubt that they perpetrated the crime.

The government refused and continue to refuse to admit additional evidence and other corroborating testimony pointing to "other persons" responsible for instigating the "massacre."

Unfortunately, those responsible are said to be Muslims and Tibo and his friends became scapegoats!

Amado

Meanwhile, supporters of Tibo and friends, including many Muslims and the former President of Indonesia, are protesting in Sulawesi and in the nation's capital, Jakarta.

More on the story:

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=6923

Amado

MSNBC is quoting AP reports that the execution of Tibo and friends was "delayed" or "postponed" because the government was "busy" preparing for the celebrations of Indonesia's independence on August 17.

It is now August 12th in Indonesia and in the Asia-Pacific Region.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14302825/

The report also cited the receipt by the President of Indonesia of the last minute appeal from Rome for clemency which was issued today by the Holy See.

The Pope's appeal made through Cardinal Sodano, outgoing Vatican Secretary of State:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=7371

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=6938

Hope springs eternal!

Amado

How about "punishment"?

And as for the first reason - it certainly deters that particular criminal from committing any more crimes.

Indonesia's profile should be considered as it affects the progress of evangelization in that part of the world.

Although Indonesia was evangelized starting in the early part of the 16th century (St. Francis Xsavier was there also), there was slow progress because Islam took root first and, prior to that, Buddhism.

When the Dutch took over from the Portuguese, the Catholic Church was forbidden to expand and Protestantism was pushed by them from the 17th to first half of the 19th century.

This explains that of the 19 million or so Christians throughout Indonesia, only about 7 million are Catholics.

The Protestants and the Catholics have been fighting on and off for two decades now; then, starting in the 1990s Christians and Muslims went at each other, one of which is the 2001 alleged "massacre" of 200 Muslims by Catholic Tibo and his 2 friends in Poso, Sulawesi. (The three must be "supermen" to be able to kill by their lonely selves 200 Muslims! :rolleyes: )

However, Indonesia remains the largest Muslim country in the world with about 90% of its total population of 245 million, or roughly 220~221 million.

Let's pray that the Christians, especially our Catholic brethren, will not be cowed by the unjust treatment of Tibo and friends!

Amado

The one instance in the Gospels in which Jesus is confronted by a situation in which the Torah prescribed the death penalty is the case of the woman taken in adultery. His response was "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7 RSV) With respect to the sin of murder, I would note that both Moses and David were murderers, and yet they were never executed-instead, they repented and are remembered much less as murderers than as heroes of the faith.

Isn't it the time to do something?

The Protestants are imposing their false religion with money, the Zionists destroy Christian nations, the Muslims kill and attack our people, the Pagans in India and other countries continue to discriminate against Christians, secularists and lapsed communists wish to erase all aspects of the Christian civilization and Capitalism build a kingdom of slaves in all countries.

For how long will we stand these abuses?

I strongly believe it's the time for a World Wide National-Christian Revolution, a Cruzade against our enemies.