www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Democrat response to the State of the Union..

I don't know; I've seen many less charitable comments by others here and a few of those directed at me.

Any insult I directed at your President was small and meant in jest. I see broader, more serious and much more insulting rhetoric here directed at the Democrats.

What I think the real problem here is is my comments on the Catholic vote internationally and the dynamic of having the conservative subculture and pro-life movement simultaneously collapsing. I suppose that the Rangel quote didn't help, but if he offends you then you should write to him.

I'm being charitable here, I think. I'm taking the time to try to understand your panic and insecurity and your desire to cope with crises and not hear other voices. I admitted previously that one of my postings offered nothing particularly profound and represented the views of a political outsider. And an outsider's perspective is sometimes helpful.

I offered in another post that anyone here could dialogue with me privately about these issues and I gave my home e-mail address. It's fine if you don't want to do dialogue, but what does that say about the strength and security of your positions? Here it is again: rjrossi@navicom.com.

I started with the belief that you're all fine people. I still think so. It's the insecurity and reactive impulses and lack of intellectual rigor I often find untenable in some of the leading conservative voices.

Be well.

bob r.

Dear Bob,

I am sorry, I didn't realize that you weren't an American. I assumed that you were.

I am an American and, yes, President Bush is infact, MY President, just as some years back, President Bill Clinton was MY President, and so on and so forth, whether or not I personally voted for them!

Each man in office will be respectfully referred to by me because of their position of authority. That is the Christian way.

Sincerely in Christ,
Alice

A Democrat's response to all the political conservatives on this forum:

Dear friends,

Let's not confuse religion with politics. Jesus Christ was not a Republican, nor was he a Conservative.

As one of the few Liberals who posts here I felt it is important for me to speak out, though my grasp of all the issues is imperfect and my ability to communicate on them faulty.

What the church teaches is for the church to teach to its members. The U.S. is a secular government with a constitution and a separation of powers. The individuals who serve in the government should be leaders of all the people, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Animist, Wiccan, Native Americans, European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans (let's see -- who have I left out?)

The Bush administration are proven liars, the facts are there. They led us into a war based on lies. They have exhibited gross incompetence on so many levels and with so many matters they have touched.
Bush has not made us safer, he has made us more vulnerable.

Does the sanctity of life include not sending young men and women off to die to satisfy the arrogance of a few men in Washington?

Does the sanctity of life include respecting the working class who suffer in preventably dangerous environments, the poor?

And what about the sanctity of life of our children? The church can forgive over and over pederasts, and then when publicly exposed, confuse pederasty with homosexuality.

The founding fathers created a constitution with a separation of powers and with a separation of church and state, to protect the rights of the people, you and me, all of us. The Bush administration has repeatedly failed to uphold the constitution in accordance with his swearing in.

I am so worried for this country, for us all. Our environment is being destroyed, our freedoms are being taken away, our right to live and work in self sufficiency are being undermined. All so that power and wealth can be consolidated into the hands of the Have Mores. The real base to whom Bush is pandering.

I guess this post is probably too incoherent to mean much. I wonder why it is so difficult for us all of opposing views to have dialog on these matters...

Open your eyes, admit to the facts, don't be afraid to confront the truth.

peace and love,
Nonna

In addition to the issues that Nonna brings up, neither party is willing to address the fact that our economy is collapsing. People can site all the figures and reports to counter that claim, but the reality is that a newly opened Walmart in the Chicago suburb of Evergreen Park recently had 25.000 applicants for 325 low paying jobs. A newspaper add for a construction company seeks an experienced crane operator to work for $10 an hour. A major package handler in the metro area hasen't raised starting wages in at least 8 years, and now no longer runs it's radio adds. In the meantime Nicor has raised it's Winter heating rates 71 pct. Property taxes have gone up again (in my area that is) and of course gasoline prices have skyrocketed. Besides that I recently watched a CBS news report from New Orleans, in which black residents told reporters that they were being priced out of rebuilding jobs in there own city, by newly arrived illegal aliens from Central America, who are doing the work well below union scale.

It's a rather grim picture, and in my opinion, one that will lead a majority of Americans to accept a return to a military draft by the end of this decade.

Right, He is a KING.

Which is why a few of us are monarchists.

Bring back Sts. Louis, Stephen, Henry, Eric , Bathild, Margaret, and Ketevan!!!

(I googled some of those names. )

Dear Nonna,

I disagree with some of the things you are saying, but most especially, I believe that many terrorist attacks have been thwarted by our competent administration.

ANY President would do whatever he or she personally thought they could to protect us, and I do not think that this President is any different. Ofcourse, ultimately, any safety we enjoy and any thwarting of attacks is in the hands and providence of the Almighty.

I am truly disappointed in the lack of civility and outright ugly anger and hatred which have come to characterize the citizens of this country when discussing politics.

I love President Bill Clinton but I no longer respect Senator Hillary Clinton, an otherwise brilliant woman, whose smirks and sarcastic faces in the audience of President Bush's speeches do more to destroy all that the woman's movement has strived to achieve through the decades than anything else I can think of. It degrades women into being nothing more than creatures of their subjective emotions.

I have tried very hard to stay out of these threads because I find them personally distasteful. Every administration in our country's history has faced challenges. In some areas our Presidents succeed and in others they don't-- period.

If this is the most horrible administration ever, I would just like to know, without anomosity and prejudice to our former President (who I happen to be quite fond of despite not agreeing with him on every point and policy and being very disappointed in his sexual escapades in the work place): would you and others of your political persuasion say that we were living in perfect utopia under his administration?

Sincerely in Christ,
Alice, who believes that all Americans should stand behind their leaders whether or not they represent their particular party and that all Christians should be respectful of them...(and then we wonder why children are more disrespectful of authority figures these past two decades than ever before?)

Dear Alice,

Please check your private messages. I sent you one a while ago.

You talk about the competent administration that has averted disaster. I fear you are not fully aware of all the facts. And I wonder what you have been told that you are relying on for those conclusions.

As to supporting any president regardless of party: One can respect the office of the presidency while having no respect for the individual that occupies that office. Especially when that individual does not take on the responsibility of being a leader of *all* the people regardless of their party. The Bush administration has been vicious in its attacks on dissenters within its own party and from other parties, has not been able to admit to mistakes, and has ploughed ahead with some imaginary "mandate" though they were not elected in 2000 and only squeeked by with much election fraud in 2004. (Just look at the information about the voting in Ohio this time.)

In a democracy the people have to stand up for the truth, and if that means criticizing their president --to be a true and loyal citizen that is their duty.

As to respect, I don't think any Democrat would or has behave the way Jesse Helmes behaved when he said that if President Clinton came to NC, he should be shot or something,that the military should rebel against their commander in chief.

I don't think any Democrat would say we lived in a Utopia under Clinton, that would be silly and down right Pollyanaish. And his inability to control his carnal desires was a concern of every Liberal I talked to. He could have been great, but for the women.

But Yes, I was very disappointed when I learned that american political discussion was not verboten at this forum.

with love and wish of peace,
Nonna

Bob,

Sorry for the almost full day�s delay in responding. Things sometimes pile up.

I disagree strongly with your idea that more insulting comments have been made against you or against Democrats. As far as I can remember, you are the first person to actually call another human being a �loathsome little beast�.

You might consider that that there is a huge difference between calling someone else a �loathsome little beast� and stating that you find an opinion as it is expressed to be X (i.e., incorrect, not proven, irresponsible, etc.).

In the end, your style of posting is very uncharitable. And your name-calling only succeeds in closing ears to whatever is worth listening in what you have to say. When you yell and speak nastily you have already lost whatever argument you were making.

Are the conservative culture and the pro-life movement simultaneously collapsing? I did not have that question in my mind when I responded to your insulting post. It is, however, a very fair question (perhaps one for its own thread). Most political movements are made up of a collation of sub-groups. These sub-groups often hold some major goals in common while also each having some goals the others do not share. In the past generation conservatives have moved from a minority to a bare majority (at least politically). Any group that obtains power tends to self destruct. There is nothing new or unique about this and it certainly might happen with conservatives. But that is a topic for another thread.

It has not come across in your posts but I am sure that you do mean well (at least I hope you do). I�m just asking that you demonstrate this in your posts. There are so many other posters here who have longer histories. When they disagree or seem disagreeable we can interpret this in light of their history of posting on other subjects. [I personally enjoy my exchanges with my brother, Daniel (especially when he gets into his �crusade� modes). We disagree on politics and I find many of his opinions ill considered (and I know he finds some of mine also ill considered). Yet I know him to be a sincere follower of the Lord and he knows that he has an ongoing open invitation to stop by for a cold beer on my deck.]

Admin

Dear Lawrence you said:

"In addition to the issues that Nonna brings up, neither party is willing to address the fact that our economy is collapsing."

I say:

I don't know where you live, but we tried to get a painter to paint our small breakfast room, and he gave us a price of ....get this now.....$1,200. Obviously he's not desperate for work.

Of course we laughed at that. But when taking into account that I looked out the window yesterday and saw a new construction in front of me, I realized why he had given us such a rediculous price. Of course that price included the actual painter who was no doubt was an 'illegal' immigrant. What in the world would we do without them...at least here in the North East.

Zenovia

Dear Nonna,

Yes, I did receive your pm. Thank you.

I don't like to get upset. I don't want to argue. I don't agree with your post and there are similar things I could have said about other administrations like the bombing of Kosovo on Orthodox Easter for instance, despite the pleas not to from Orthodox Archbishops around the world...but I divert.

Life is too short for anger and dissent.

Politics are not that important in the realm of our personal theosis and salvation.

No man is perfect. I wouldn't want to have the weight and responsibility of being President so I respect whoever does take that weight and responsibility.

I personally respect the Christian devotion and the beautiful personhood of President Bush and his family. Their inner beauty shines to me. I also respected the Christian devotion of President Carter and he and his wife also had a beautiful and Christian continence...an inner peace of Christ that is perhaps only discernable to some.

Some people look for the bad in people. I try to look for the good, and I find it although admittedly, sometimes it is easier than other times.

Throughout life, I have found that every person, including myself, has good and not so good within them, and every person has incredible strengths and talents but at the same time incredible weaknesses and failure. If we entertain only the 'not so good' and shortcomings in others we have done nothing constructive for that person nor, ultimately, and perhaps more importantly, for our own souls.

God bless,
Alice

Dear Alice,

I don't know why but my messages box shows my message to you as unread. Don't know why. Sorry to pester you about it, but that's my excuse!

love,
Nonna

Dear Nonna,

Private messages get simultaneously sent to my e-mail account as well. I read the bulk of them there and then delete them from my private message box so they won't clog it up. Perhaps that is why.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Nonna you said:

"The Bush administration are proven liars, the facts are there. They led us into a war based on lies."

I say:

So says Teddy Kennedy. You do realize that he allowed a young woman that was working for him to die years ago. He had an accident after a party, and allowed her to die rather than risk his political career. If you should wonder why he never ran for president.

A book is coming out by a general of Saddam Hussein who says exactly what happened to the weapons of mass destruction, the WMD's that the intelligence of every nation said they had. Oh how I wish I could remember the name of the book, but I'm sure it'll be advertised.

The general said by the way, that they are in Syria, and how many flights were taken and the excuses for the trips, etc.

You said:

" They have exhibited gross incompetence on so many levels and with so many matters they have touched."

I say:

I don't know what you are talking about. He pulled us out of a recession when he came in, and managed to do it even with 911, which under normal circumstances, and under any other administration would have thrown us into a depression. You know of course, that's what Osama Bin Laden wanted to do. Throw the world into a depression so he could conquer all.

We then had hurricane after hurricane, and yet I see people still building their mansions.

You said:

"Bush has not made us safer, he has made us more vulnerable."

I say:

Well we've been threatened, but they haven't succeeded yet. Thank heaven!

You said:

"Does the sanctity of life include not sending young men and women off to die to satisfy the arrogance of a few men in Washington?"

I say:

If their sacrifice is going to save your life, your children and the lives of millions of people like you, yes. Remember we went through a war where more than sixty million people died. A war that had it been caught early, might never had happened. Did it ever occur that maybe this is what our President is trying to do? Maybe, just maybe he's trying to change a culture before it destroys us.

You said:

"Does the sanctity of life include respecting the working class who suffer in preventably dangerous environments, the poor?"

I say:

The issue of dangerous environments is one for the states to tend to. Do you really want the Federal government to take away the rights of the states, and by doing so the rights of the people?

You said:

"The founding fathers created a constitution with a separation of powers and with a separation of church and state, to protect the rights of the people, you and me, all of us."

I say:

"The separation of church and state was inacted within the constitution so that we would have the freedom to worship wherever and whenever we wished. That no one 'Church' would have control over us. It was not inacted so that those 'rights' could be taken away from us by those who have no God.

When children cannot sing Christmas carols in school, and Merry Christmas cannot be mentioned, then where are those rights? When the very foundation of our civilization, and the basis of our legal system known as the 'Ten Commandments is being taken off the walls of our courts ...against the will of the majority in this country, then where are those rights? You know I could go on and on.

You said:

"I am so worried for this country, for us all. Our environment is being destroyed, our freedoms are being taken away, our right to live and work in self sufficiency are being undermined. All so that power and wealth can be consolidated into the hands of the Have Mores. The real base to whom Bush is pandering."

I say:

"You know Nonna, I think the Democrats are getting to you. I remember a few years ago, some adjustments had to be made to Social Security. Well the difference between the Republican adjustment and the Democrat adjustment was miniscule, yet there were the Democrats! All over the TV screens scaring the senior citizens that the Republicans were going to take Social Security away from them. And they fell for it!

As for the have mores, I would have to include plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. with them. Do you realize that they make over $100 an hour. At least in this area.

As for President Bush, I always admired him for his values and integrity. I found it painful though to listen to him speak. He was completely uncharismatic...at least at the microphone. What a difference with Clinton. Here Clinton had such a lack of integrity, but he was so charming, so likable. Well! I have to admit, Pres. Bush was certainly the orator that night.

Zenovia

I'm really tired of people pulling the "If you're pro-life how can you be pro-war?" card. There have been OVER 1,000,000,000 (that's ONE BILLION)recorded abortions since 1980. If there were that many dead from wars we wouldn't have enough room for all the bodies. Murdered babies are ususally burnt, experimented on, turned into vaccines and other medicines, I could go on. War, as wicked and horrible as it is, is no where near as abominable as the sacrifice to the demon Moloch that abortion is.

Gee, John, that might be the nicest thing you've ever said about me [sniff].
As for Bob's joke, there is a long tradition in Christian history of not speaking respectfully of those in power. Granted, nowhere in the New Testament is anyone called a "loathsome little beast" but they are called "vipers", "whited sepulchars" etc., hardly respectful terms.
I must admit when I read Bob's joke I laughed. When I had returned to my senses I thought, "Hey, that's not fair, calling the President of the United States a 'loathsome little beast'. I mean, isn't George Bush something like six feet tall?"
[Preemptive disclaimer: I do not by this joke intend to offend anyone or even suggest that the President is a loathsome big beast. You all know I cannot resist a good punchline, which has gotten me into trouble in the past.]
And Bob, I hope you are not offended by the threat of suspension. It has happened to many of us [though I note that I have never, in fact, been suspended]. Indeed, many of the most, er, tolerated longtime posters have been suspended, and not a few of the revered [like the esteemed Dr Roman]. I in fact am of the opinion that if the Administrator were not the Administrator that he may well have faced suspension for his habit of insisting that his opponent in a debate holds opinions that he in fact does not. When said opponent insists that that is not what he believes, John will only insist that yes it is and continue his attack against his imaginary straw man.
Anyway, I hope you stick around. I appreciate your presence and opinions, not least because as a real Socialist and leftist, you make me look moderate. :p And as someone who has long personal experience and contact in the Holy Land you bring an authority to these debates that our resident Middle East experts lack.
Many years,
Daniel