www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall the latest Star Wars movie

I saw the new Star Wars move tonight for the second time. It is excellent. I won't discuss the plot, so as to not spoil it for those who haven't seen it yet.

I will say this: it has an excellently told theme of how good people can make themselves evil by yielding to their fear, greed, lust, anger and pride. It was a real character study in the opposite of theosis, and at times it was horrifying. It wasn't horrifying for special effects, etc. It was horrifying to watch a man damn himself. It is a lesson woefully untold these days, even in our churches, and it was good to see in a movie. The movie clearly exalts goodness over evil, but it also clearly shows the reality of evil and how it is *chosen.*

--John

Thank you John,

This is a very interesting annalysis of the movie. To me very different observation that has been observed by others. I have yet to see, but I know my kids will soon.

Thanks again,
Pani Rose

John,

Great critique. I saw it as well yesterday, and was deeply impressed on a number of levels. The larger themes that you mention are powerful and wonderfully represented on the screen.

The love story and its lines, however, are clunky at best. Lucas, whom I understand is an ardent Buddhist, writes romantic lines like a Buddhist. Straight, no pathos, and resonating with the audience like the sound of one hand clapping. A few of them delivered at the beginning of the film felt like someone had just introduced an elephant into space. "Please - pay no attention to this elephant! He is just part of the scenery!" Once the lines were done, the actors seemed to breathe a sigh of relief "Whew - that line was delivered, now let's get on with the acting." The audience - which actually phsyically groaned when I heard it - were grateful to be over that little speedbump, even if it was the size of an elephant.

But really, I did enjoy the movie. It aint Shakespeare, but the story is truly of mythical proportions.

My two cents!

Gordo, who types while clapping one hand

Very well said, John. The movie really impressed me, and I couldn't seem to put into words WHY... but you just explained it. :-)

Thank you, all, for your compliments ! --John

The movie impressed me because it was the first movie that had heart to it. I think Anakin could be the poster child for the human heart in conflict with itself.I know someone who saw it and hated it becuase people made bad choices when they knew better. I had to tell him that knowing the path is not walking the path. JUst because we know something is bad for us doesn't mean we don't do it. That is what makes the ending soooo tragic. For me anyway.

-Katie g

Well said, Katie, well said . . .

I like this! Yes, Episode III is tragic, and should be. One thing I thought though which leaves much to be desired was how Vader was after he got the familiar mask and all. Okay, so he was upset after knowing Padme's fate, but come on now: Vader's reaction was so...un-Vader like. It would have been more dramatic to have him be calm about it, yet menacing at the same time. Something like saying, "For Padme, the Jedi will pay for this." or such instead of screming, "Nnnnoooo!" (come on GL--what were you thinking?)

I think Padme was the most tragic character. She was so good but too naive. SO many people think that Anakin is sooo tragic and i fell soooo bad for Anakin but why? He had control of everything and made bad choices and people liked Padme suffered for it.

-Katie g

Here is a really interesting link I found on Spiritdaily from Raiders News Update. Also, some serious thoughts about Star Wars, things that I had wondered about myself when I watched the first of the last three. It sounds a loud alarm within me. Especially movies like this I always pray and make sure I have the opportunity to discuss it with my children, even though they are young adults. I am always cautious when I get the sence of New Age stuff about something. You know how moms, are always got to get our $.02 worth in
~~~~~~~~~
Will Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith Promote a New Age Messiah?
By Thomas Horn
RNU News Sr. Reporter

Revenge of the Sith is the latest in a series where parallels between film and New Age theology is strong.

RNU.com � (Raiders News Update) - An important part of New Age theology is the belief that God is animistic or pantheistic and that humans are divine members of the whole "that God is." Animism is the theory of the existence of a principle or Force inseparable from matter and to which all life and action are attributable. Pantheism is the doctrine that the Force totals the whole of the universe and is God.

According to New Ageism, Jesus came to reveal the animistic or pantheistic nature of God and to teach humanity the art of living in harmony with "the God of Forces" or, as George Lucas coins, the Force.

New Agers believe Jesus was a divinely born master who ascended to a place of distinction to live among other Masters of the Spiritual Hierarchy - Buddha , Krishna, (Yoda?) - after illustrating the principles of the Force.

According to New Agers the Force is revealed during significant times in world history, and modern followers look for the imminent appearing of the next divinely born World Teacher who will, as Jesus did, illustrate the divine Force living within and around us. In this way, New Age theology prepares the world for the coming of the False Prophet and the Antichrist.

Such New Age concepts include:


* A group of divinely born and ascended masters are in tune with the Force.
* Because of divine birth, the Force lives in the blood of each master.
* Occasionally, a new master is born equally in tune with the Force.
* The new master illustrates how others can live in harmony with the Force then takes his place among the ascended masters.
* Another master will come along at the right time to help us feeble humans.

Some note the unusual parallel between such New Age theology and the Star Wars Jedi. For instance in Lucas's film, THE PHANTOM MENACE, Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn wiped a patch of blood from the youth Anakin's arm and made an analysis of the blood. He was looking for midi-chlorians. What are midi-chlorians?

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON JINN : Midi - chlorians are microscopic life forms that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON JINN : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi - chlorians.

ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON JINN : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN : They do??

QUI-GON JINN : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you.

ANAKIN : I don't understand.

QUI-GON JINN : With time and training, Annie...you will.

Earlier in the film Qui-Gon discovers the midi - chlorian count is off the charts with Anakin:

OBI-WAN : Strange. The transmission seems to be in good order, but the reading's off the chart...over twenty thousand.

OBI-WAN : Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midi-chlorian count that high!

Qui-Gon visits with Anakin 's mother, Shmi, and discovers that in addition to his unprecedented midi-chlorian count, Anakin was divinely conceived:

QUI-GON JINN : You should be proud of your son. He gives without any thought of reward.

SHMI : He knows nothing of greed. He has...

QUI-GON JINN : He has special powers.

SHMI : Yes...

QUI-GON JINN : He can see things before they happen...

http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/starwarsnew.htm

I'm not worried about it, Panni. To me and to most people, its a movie and not a religion.

As for the "theology" behind Star Wars, it reminds of the kind of mix of Taoism and Buddhism that traditionally existed in China and Japan. "Tao" is the analogous to "The Force," and Zen Buddhism / Bushido is analogous to the Jedi Code.

Personally, if these movies got people interested in serious study of real Eastern religions, I think that would be a good thing. In that way, people could learn a different way of seeing things; and they would better appreciate how Christ completes and corrects and perfects all spiritual truths known before God's Self-Revelation; and it would help people see what the New Agers have stolen from real religions and waterd down to their pabulum of neo-gnosticism.

--John

I tend to agree with you, John. "Star Wars" seems to be based upon a simplified Taoist philosophy, with various other elements mixed in. The Jedi are very much like fighting monks and if you've seen any of the more recent martial arts films like "Hero," you can see where a tradition where George Lucas probably got a lot of inspiration... well, that, and the old Kung Fu show... and a whole lot of Westerns, as well. My enjoyment of the movies as entertainment has little to do with looking for any deep meaning in them. I do enjoy studying Eastern philosophy and martial arts.

I am well aware of the New Age theme behind Star Wars; I don't let that stop me from enjoying them nor let it influence me. I don't think GL is making a sales pitch for New Age in the movies...not a hard sell anyway. I think the philosophies there are applicable to any religion, including Christianity.

Star Wars is not New Age, to be New Age it would have to get rid of its obvious clear lines between good and evil, among other things. Influence from Japanese culture is there obviously, but I think it is insulting the way it is often equated with New Age. As for George Lucas, he was raised Methodist, is officialy nothing now, but does believe in God and studies all the world's major religions-from his own lips at Star Wars Celebration III.

Joseph Campbell's philosophy is the true anchor for the Star Wars saga. His book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, is a good palce to start if one truly wants to see what motivated Geroge Lucas and what he was trying to do: create a modern myth that relied on universal archetypes so that it would resonate with the broadest audience possible. I think he succeeded.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Good point, Deacon. As far as I could ever understand New Age "stuff" (perhaps there is not much substance to "understand?"), it basically steals the quotable elements from a variety of philosophies and religious practices, but cheapens them and strips them of their worth, including any sort of true obligation or any sort of meaningful distinction between good and evil.

Common mythologicial themes have always fueled literature and the struggle between good and evil makes for a good story that all cultures can related to. JRR Tolkien, who was, of course, a Catholic, took the inspiration for LOTR from a variety of sources. You can certainly find the Christian influence there, but you can also find elements of the Kalavela and Edda there, as well as Beowulf and the Norse folktales of Shetland or Orkney.

The struggle of good versus evil has always made a good story. The thing that draws people to Star Wars (I only really like the original, but I've watched 'em all but the most recent, and I'll see that soon) is in part the tragedy of Darth Vader - the man who could have been a hero but who chose to serve evil. History and literature is full of stories like that and we never tire of them. Oddly, in the order the Star Wars films were made, we learned how things turned out for ol' Vader long before we learned the beginning of the story. But it's so scripted and such a common story, that we don't care.

One humorous note: my friend's parents are Dutch and he speaks some of the language. When the first movie came out and we were kids he learned the Darth Vader character's name, he of course said, "Whose father IS he?" I admit, that went right over my little head.

Darth Vader is bad but Anakin is good. Sure, he turned to the dark side but look at his reason to do so. He thought that he would do something good not something horribly awful.
-Katie g

Agreed. Two things I like most about the Star Wars movies are that they make a sharp distinction between good evil and they clearly exalt goodness.

We need more of that in today's entertainment and popular culture. We need quality, moral entetainment. And when that is put into a well-crafted, entertaining story, the public responds with lots of business and approval.

I just don't understand why there isn't more quality moral entertainment. When it is presented, it sells well. Even if the Hollywood people don't care about their immortal souls, they do care about their bank accounts. They make every kind of filth, appealing to the basest passions, in order to make money. Why, then, don't they make other product that sells well: quality, moral entertainment?


I think you are exactly right. The rest (East Asian religions, martial arts, etc.) is added in, but I think 'the hero's quest' is the core of this story.

I agree with your post, Annie_SFO. In addition to the theme of 'the hero's quest', I think Lucas tried to make his Star Wars movies to hearken back to the days of serial movie shows like "Flash Gordon." It was good, clean, enteraing fun with lots of action.

I enjoy the spiritual dimension to the Star Wars movies too. Much of it is special effects, etc., but at least those movies *mention* higher realities without getting into devil worship, witchcraft or whatnot. And they do so without being preachy or dull. (Although Yoda's German syntax gets a little tiresome after a while.)

I enjoy Eastern philosophy too. I had left the Church for several years, and reading East Asian religious philosophy (Hinduism, Buddhism and a litle Taoism) enabled me to be open to the Gospel again.

--John

Agreed. And his son (Luke) helped him rediscover that fact within himself in the last movie.


Agreed. And that is how so much evil gets started . . .

I agree I too enjoy the Star Wars movies.

My ears just tune in when I hear such things as I posted earlier. It sends up a RED flag in my mind, it says to be CAUTIOUS. Maybe it is just a hang up from when my kids were young. If we cease to be vigilent in the smallest of things sometimes big stuff creeps in and we are caught unaware. I don't mean I go looking in every cornor, but sometimes things just don't seem right, and each time I heard those words that bothered me. But then other than Star Wars I have never been much of a science ficiton buff.

The distinction between good and evil is very clear though, you got that right.

Pani Rose

I saw the 1st three movies - now IV, V, and VI, which led me to the conclusion I reached long ago - he's making this stuff up as he goes along. I hear the new movie has better acting and lines than the earlier ones - it would have to. I remember hearing the charge of new age religion many years ago concerning these movies. But like one of my elementary school students said about the Harry Potter books, "it's not real." In the end, it's only a movie and it's not real, either.

You're kidding, right? He cut off Mace Windu's hand so that Darth Sidious could kill him--and not because he was concerned for Sidious but because he wanted to save his wife. He also slaughtered a room full of helpless children and butchered the seperatist leaders who had already surrendered. There can be no possible reason that legitimises such actions, particularly since Padme would've rather died than have him do those things. I mean, he even attacked his wife in anger. At any time he could have chosen not to do those things.

No matter how nicely Lucas portrays his 'conversion' to evil there is no way you can maintain that Anakin thought good would come of his action. I mean, having discovered that the Dark Lord of the Sith was Supreme Chancellor he would've realised that Palpatine had orchastrated a war which had cost millions of people their lives simply to secure absolute rule for himself. Teaming up with Sidious could only have meant one thing. Anakin knew this and joined with him anyway.

It is never permissible to do what is objectively evil even for a greater good. Thus, to plunge the galaxy into darkness for the sake of a lesser good is just taking the cookie from my vantage point.

Sorry to start a diatribe about this issue but I LOVE STAR WARS. Yes, its pure pantheism but I've been watching this series since before I reverted to Catholicism and well...its cool

Anakin was selfish, nuff said. I empathise with him but I cannot sympathise with him (note the distinction). I understand why he acted as he did, I even feel pity towards him, but there is no way that justifies what he did. Anyone who thinks its worth trading lives (particularly those of innocents) for what they want has pushed the old boat out a little too far in my opinion.

I wouldn't take the Star Wars movies for anything other than simple entertainment. Mainly because the story as a whole (all six movies) doesn't really present a unified vision.

If you watch the first three movies (i.e., the new ones) you see that Anakin's downfall was based on his love for Padme, and a desire to protect her at all costs. In other words, he was willing to do evil in order to save her, even though she would be repulsed by that attitude. So rather than detach himself from his love for her as his Jedi training demanded, he refused to see love as somehow wrong.

Ironically, in the second trilogy (i.e., the original movies) it is Anakin's love for his son that ultimately leads to his destroying the Emperor, simultaneously bringing about his return to the good side of the force.

Clearly, the message of the original movies was a positive message, it was a message of love and redemption, while the new movies send a confused message about the nature of love, which is presented as the cause of Anakin's downfall, and a bizarre notion of good and evil, where only evil deals in absolutes.

As I see it, the overall story (all six movies) presents a confused vision of the meaning of good and evil, and of the importance and place of love in human existence.

hey, just read the works and view the films for what they are. I enjoy all of these genera, whether it by Rawlings, Tolkien, Lewis, Lucas, or whoever. enjoy, and if you can get a few insights, great.
Much Love,
Jonn

hey, just read the works and view the films for what they are. I enjoy all of this genera ;whether it by Rawlings, Tolkien, Lewis, Lucas, or whoever. enjoy, and if you can get a few insights, great.
Much Love,
Jonn

Myles, I think you may have missed it when I said that Anakin is good, Darth Vader isn't good. Anakin didn't kill youndlings or choke his wife that was all Darth Vader. Anakin chopped off Mace's hand but the rest was all Darth Vader. And Anakin was lied to. They all were Anakin Obi-wan Padme they were all lied to. Look at the scene when Anakin walks in on Mace standing over a "helpless" Palpatine. It certainly looks like it did when Anakin killed Dooku and he later said that what he did was wrong so it did kinda look like Mace was the bad guy. I"m not saying Anakin is all good but you have to know that there is a line between Anakin and Darth Vader.

-Katie g

You seem to separate the two sets as somehow exclusive of the other, and not as an entirety as most see it. You would naturally come to the conclusion you have if one were to take the two sets as somehow mutually exclusive of the other, which is not so. The progression can be seen even by merely looking at the titles themselves: Revenge of the Sith shows us the completion of Anakin's downfall towards darkness, while Return of the Jedi shows us his return to goodness, with the help of his son. What they do show is that love can both be constructive as well as destructive, and in Anakin's case it led to his destruction, though slowly he was redeemed by it as well. I would think that partly as well that it was his love for Padme, through Luke, that led him back. There is no confusion in the message about good and evil. Only when you try to isolate one from the other do you come out with such a thinking, but not when you take the series in its entirety.

Just on O'Rielly, a man and woman went to see Star Wars in England and decided to have a light sabor fight. So they put oil in glass tubes and lit it somehow, and proceded to have a "light sabor fight". Both people are in the hospital recovering from their burns and other injuries. OH WELL!

I guess it took some brains to figure that out. But it took a total lack of common sence to do such a stupid thing.

Pani Rose

gee, I'm glad it wasn,t fatal. you would have someone or other proffer the opinion that it would be a prime example of thinning out the herd.oh, according to Voltaire, common sense is not as common as one would think.
Much Love,
Jonn

The Onion Dome has listed some ways to tell if your congregation is Star Wars crazy.
Star Wars [theoniondome.com]

Depression Linked to Intelligence and "Submissiveness"; "Star Wars" Fans Have Higher Rates of Depression.....

....Surprisingly, "Star Wars" played a role in Dr. Herndon's research results. "Our data revealed that 'Star Wars' fans had unexpectedly high rates of depression. The 'Star Wars' mythos apparently tends to heighten conditions of stress and disappointment, fueling an increased sense of vulnerability."
"But at least 'Star Wars' fans who are depressed can claim significantly above average intelligence," Dr. Herndon quips. [Dr. Herndon is a member of the American Psychological Association.]
http://www.prweb.com/releases/?8071

found on spiritdaily.com

yeah, my Russian Orthodox friend here in Chattanooga shared that with me. I guess it really depends on your point of view (Obiwan), if it's humorous.
Much Love,
Jonn

Absolutely - that really hit me as well. But what is most compelling is watching this knowing that one day this same man will be able to be redeemed - no one is outside of salvation.

Really, I imagine the same is probably true of Shakespeare fans...

Of course, living in your parents' basement past age 30, spending weeks planning how to dress like Darth Vader for opening night, and "angsting" about whether or not your light-saber is in its original packaging probably are probably all indicators of deeper-seated problems.

Interestingly, one of the cable channels has been showing the two "Trekkies" movies lately. You are right in stating some movie fans have a few problems.

Hi,

Maybe, but I don't think you'll get a group of those large enough to make a meaninful statistical comparison.

Then again, not all of us, Star Wars fans, do those things.

I left my parent's home the day I married, when I was 23; I went to see Episode 3 on opening day, yes, but with my family, dressed in civilian clothes; and I do not own a lightsaber.

Still, I remain the founder of the Star Wars Fan Club in Guadalajara, and even remotely, its strongest ideological influence, not because they lack more talent, but because the current leadership still likes to run their new ideas by me.

We do have people who over-do their act, but mostly that is not the case, mostly we are people bright enough to find ourselves with enough time to spare in a healthy hobbie.

Shalom,
Memo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Annie_SFO:
[QB] Really, I imagine the same is probably true of Shakespeare fans...

Of course, living in your parents' basement past age 30, spending weeks planning how to dress like Darth Vader for opening night, and "angsting" about whether or not your light-saber is in its original packaging probably are probably all indicators of deeper-seated problems.


yeah, GET A LIFE ! the remark about living in the parents' basemant is eerily familiar to the line used in a SNL skit years ago in reference to Trekkie fans at a convention.thankfully, I moved out of my parents' home ten days after graduation from high school, and never looked back. nothing wrong with liking Star Wars, I do, it's entertainment, pure and simple, nothing else. oh, when my mother sold the house and moved to Florida, my baby brother, pushing thirty like a tsunami, had to move out of the basement and get a life. why are we first borns so mature and together?
Much Love,
Jonn