www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Catechism of the Catholic Church

Dear Friends,

I like the CCC because it came with approval from the Holy Father.

After the confusion after Vatican II we Latins were dizzy with liberal catechisms and conservative catechisms. Finally a Catholic catechism.

It's not perfect, but its ours, one volume and very readable.

Maybe Easterners should petition their heirarchs for their own catechism.

Paul

Dearest Brian,

I think that with all your efforts aimed at studying Orthodoxy, you may not have yet had an opportunity to review the CCC!

In fact, it does more than just "bow" to Orthodox theology.

It makes ITS OWN a number of Orthodox theological perspectives that, had they had been in place way back when, I don't believe we'd have a divided Church today.

Section 404 truly does place "Original Sin" squarely within a framework that reflects historic Orthodox patristic thought.

Its discussion on the Trinity is one of the most sensitive (to the East) that I've seen and certainly can form the basis of further convergence between East and West in that area.

Its section on the Jesus Prayer shows that the West is ready and willing to drink not only from the Eastern theological trough, but also from the well-springs of its mystical Life in Christ.

I believe that the CCC comes closest than any Latin document to Orthodoxy as a whole.

And I think Orthodoxy itself would do well to learn a thing or two from the methodology and presentation of the CCC in certain respects.

The CCC is about clarity of thought on faith, morals and worship - and it pulls that off brilliantly.

After having read the CCC and pondered over it, I can say that there really are no great differences between East and West that justify the separation of the Churches.

Alex

Alex,

your assessment of the CCC seems to be one of contradictions. In your previous post, you remark that it is rationalist and scholastic and that this approach is "not our way" and that is bascially Latin in it's Spirit. Then in your latest post, you say that it is completely praiseworthy, incorporating all the appropriate Eastern Christian perspectives. Both outlooks cannot be true.
My beef with the constant quoting of the Catechism by Latin Caths was that they do not seem to realize that there are older sources they need to go back to, namely the Holy and God-Bearing Fathers and their teaching and not quote the CCC chapter and verse as some Protestant fundamentalists quote Scripture chapter and verse without any sense of context.

Dear Brian,

Your assessment of my assessment isn't correct!

I maintain that the Latin perspective of the CCC remains as such.

The Latin perspective hasn't incorporated "all" of the Eastern Christian paradigms (when did I say that?), but has come a long way.

That doesn't make it any less "Latin."

The Church was Latin and Eastern before 1054!

Quoting stuff like "proof-texts" was also the way Orthodox bishops tended to respond following the split.

They quoted the canons of the councils.

There will always be those in all Churches who will look to a single "sacred" text or series of texts to parrot back ad nauseam.

That fact should not make anyone overlook the truly great milestones achieved by the CCC, especially with respect to the Eastern Churches.

It doesn't make the CCC any less a Latin document.

But being Latin is a matter of spiritual culture. One can be "Latin" and "Orthodox/Catholic" too. The Western Rites of Orthodoxy are a testimony to this.

And the CCC comes closer to this ideal than ever before.

I don't see that as a contradiction.

Alex

I guess I was also referring to 'Eastern' Catholic bishops who quote it extensively such as the Lenten pastoral letter from the Romanian eparchy.

There is nothing heretical about the CCC. Heaven forbid if there was!

But I wonder what are religious education departments and Eastern Christian publications are all about if not an attempt to convey the idea that "A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui juris." (CCEO Canon 28.1)?

How can a generic catechism "with all its bows to the Eastern Church" be possible? Are we ignoring the possiblity of the catholic-ness of the second article of rite? The early church basically rejected Tatian's Diatessaron and opted, instead, to four (often contradictory) Gospels. The Church also rejected Marcion's approach.

Does the notion of rite, if taken seriously, consider only the options of: (1) Tatian - and the attempt to find a single representation of Gospel via fusing/interweaving everything in a one size fits all text; or (2) Marcion - and the attempt to find a single representation of Gospel via elimination/rejection of other possibilities?

My response is not directed at you personally.

I like the early church's approach. It gave us all four Gospels and its mindset is reflected in the Canon's definition of rite.

I've drawn many drawings in metric and English, and sometimes did dual dimensioning, but I never did an engineering drawing whereby one part was English, another was metric, and still another part was some other scale. In all dual-dimensioned drawings, one measurement convention was always dominant (primary) and the second was always in brackets (secondary).

What guidance have we received in considering the role that the CCC plays in Eatern Catholic Christianity? How exactly do we utilize its font of resources in our religious education and ECF programs? So far, I have never seen a directive to use it.

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

When you have a moment, what did you think of my overall assessment?

Alex

Alex,

How would an Eastern Catholic catechism look like? What would its topical structure be like? Would it be structured and compartmentalized like the Eastern Code (having Archbishop Raya's comments in mind as was stated in "The Face of God") or fence in and restrict theological thought/expression like pews do to our worship?

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

I'll be careful next time I ask you to critically assess what I wrote . . .

Well, I can't imagine what an Eastern "Catechism" would look like and I'm already on record as saying that catechisms aren't Eastern anyway.

But I'm thinking about ways and means to be clear about doctrine and worship in communicating our faith.

In my religion classes, I try to do this via the liturgy and actual experience of it.

This doesn't prevent the students from asking questions about doctrine. I agree that pointing to pat catechetical answers is dry at best.

Teaching religion from our Eastern perspective is an ongoing learning experience for me.

There is a temptation to point to something defined and say, "Now that is the tool I'll use."

And, as you say with your usual great insight and pragmatic approach, that can be limiting.

So while I love spending time with my students in teaching religion, I'm open to ways in which to improve and make more coherent the actual communication of the theory and praxis of our faith.

Alex

I believe that the three book Light for Life series was intended as our Catechism.

While it is a good work, it doesn't fit as well as the CCC does as it is not easliy quoted by paragrah as the CCC is.

Nor is there any index.

It was an attempt to give us Eastern Catholic a Catechism of our own, I believe, but it fell short of that unfortunatly.

David

ps Alex I will get you back someday for your comment "That David is close to the Latins is also something that I agree with!" :p :p

Dear David,

I was wondering when you were going to say something to that . . .

You know I love you and pray for you!

God bless, Servant of Christ!

Alex

Dear DavidB:


Since I "provoked" Alex into coming out with THAT comment about you, I ask your allowance and beg your mercy for a lighter penalty.

I can assure you that Alex is clearly, albeit ever slowly, inching to our side of the divide. Someday, he will be as Latin as we want him to be!

So, instead of clobbering him on the head 3 times, the Orthodox way, a quick jab once on the chin would be sufficient in this regard.

AmdG

Dear Brothers,

A catechism doen't have to be in question and answer form. The CCC isn't in question and answer form.

What about the Didache? Is it part of the Eastern Tradition?

More thoughts...

Paul

Dear Paul,

Anything that will make my teaching of religion to smart-aleck youngsters easier and more streamlined is welcome . . .

Actually, I like reading the CCC, and now that I know Brian doesn't really like it, I'll enjoy it even more!

Alex
The original "smart-aleck"

I like Jesus' way. Tell 'em a story and then give 'em the Scripture that validates it.

Everybody likes (good) stories. Even antsy-pants catechism class kiddies.

"Once upon a time, there was this weird Canadian guy..... ---- ....and they lived happily ever after, in a mud hut in central Manitoba."

Blessings!!

My dear Alex,

Be my guest! I would rather read our Holy and God-bearing Fathers in their Original Form anyway without Vatican glosses :p NAH NAH NAH !!!