www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Church expenditures

Do we have any Church treasurers or financial people on this forum? Some questions have been raised on another thread about the cost of operating a parish. I do realize that some items are covered outside the budget but I wonder if people could offer some realistic estimates about the cost of running a Church. I suggest that you not be specific to the penny and not reveal what Church or even what eparchy. I think there may be a difference between rural and suburban or urban and that information might be helpful. Also, if you know that you are subsidized in any way include that figure as well.

I could give you Annunciation's breakdown but instead I'll give the yearly total. It takes between $178,000 and $182,000 per year to operate the parish. If all expenditures are accounted for I'd be very surprised if that is much different from the average Church in the metropolia.

Here is an average breakdown of expenditures at the last couple of parishes I served which were both a bit larger than the average BC parish but a bit smaller than Annunciation.

Pastoral expense, including salary, housing, insurance,pension, continuing education, and supply pastor when we were on vacation. $65,000 (My salary never exceeded $28,000)

Local ministry and Operating expenses for the Church including religious items, education, evangelization, utilities, maintenance and repairs and loan repayments. $63,000

Mission both in our area and worldwide. $40,000

Our average yearly expenditure for Churches with about 130-170 families was $168,000

We never received judicatory support. We were self sufficient.

There is no grade or judgment. I'm just desiring to learn. My suspicion is that except for mission the costs are about the same if judicatory support is factored in.

CDL

So far this is pretty self limiting. No one has responded. I mean this thread to be for Eastern Catholics only. I intended the poll to be for ECs only as well but since I did not state it the poll is not particularly useful.

ECs only, please.

CDL

Though I can't contribute, I am very interested in this topic and thank you CDL for raising it.

But I do have to ask, isn't the expenditures for an Orthodox parish basically the same for a BC parish?

I would think so. Go ahead and share what you have. I can't see that it would hurt.

CDL

In the Van Nuys Eparchy, the parishes give an annual statement of income/expenditures to the registered parishioners. Most other non profit organisations I have been active in (as an officer reporting to the board) I have received annual income/expenditure statements. While a parish is not a business, IMHO, it is good business to let the 'shareholders' (parishioners) know where their money goes.

Steve

I know this was the norm in Passaic as well for most of its existance...however, I know of parishes where they had not received these annual financial reports for several years and formal complaints needed to go to the chancery to get them.

I don't know, nor do I actually care at this point (in the BCC at least) if this is mandatory or if it is just a best practice that most have implemented...I only ask to hopefully help get CDL's thread started...

FYI...for anyone reading this...I think it should be known that CDL and myself agree on many things...but we strongly disagree on others...please don't read my postings on other threads as a dislike of CDL...just passionate responses...

Carson...would you see the same expenses applying to a parish of 50 families? Keeping in mind that many of the parishes are established and no longer have mortgages...

Could you share those figures for the parish you attend or if the figures are published for a typical parish in Van Nuys?

CDL

Chris,

On the surface that is correct. But are we really talking about a Church or a social club? Churches have life and are ever renewing. I show a film on Orthodoxy in Romania in my Comparative Religions classes. The narrator asked some seminarians if the Church needed to be reformed. Their answer made me set up and take notice. "The Church never needs reform only revival of the Spirit. The Church has the capacity to ever renew its spirit." One might change a word or two but not really. I agree with this.

What you call an established Church looks more like a dying club. Here's the pattern of a social club and that applies to far too many Churches. 1. The first generation has great energy. They have a mission and a vision for fulfilling it. They urge the priest forward. They build. They evangelized. They grow. 2. The second generation begins to rest upon the laurels of their parents generation. Some drift away from boredom. Some hold themselves to fairly high standards similar to their parents. Some even evangelize but most do not. 3. The congregation grows old together. They are more affluent and have put away some money. They are almost uniformly complacent. They know they aren't need but they like the familiarity of the setting and want a place to be buried. Every so often they get a twinge of conscience but they quickly put that to rest by the green sleeping powders that set in their bank accounts. They build nothing. They don't evangelize. They even express some irritation with converts. 4. They die out.

For many of our Churches stage 3 is the norm.

Contrast that with a Church. They never leave stage 1 except for temporary slips into stage 2. Stage 3 is no longer a Church.

Churches build. They may reach a point at which theosis is best promoted but then they begin to help build other congregations. They are constantly evangelizing. They don't shrink their budgets just so they won't have to spend money on expanding the kingdom of God they rather increase it so that new congregations in new areas can be raised up. They doh't make loans to other Churches they send their money and some of their members into areas not yet evangelized and watch the Church continue to grow and revive itself. They know that if 100 families is their optimum number in their local congregatin that when they reach that point they send some of their members elsewhere to form new congregations. BTW I don't know how many families in one congregation is the optimum number. I don't even think that is a particularly relevant issue. What is relevant is this as long as the Church is continually cooperating with a renewal of it spirit it remains a Church. When it slips into self sufficiency and complacency it ceases to be a Church and becomes a social club.

I say this with great empathy for the way your church was closed. It was secretive and wrong. However, when you look back at your former congregation asked yourself were we a Church or just a stage 3 club. You can answer that. I cannot and am not pretending to do so.

God has given you now a wonderful opportunity. You are in a new congregation. Is it a stage three social club. Or is it ever renewing and helping to build new congregation. If it refuses to be renewed it too will die and you will face death where you have moved.

Don't shoot the messenger. I may be wrong in some particulars but enough research has been done that these observations are essentially correct. I've seen enough to know that they are true and it has nothing to do with the name on the Church door. It is universal.

Now to finally directly answer your question. If $160,000 represents a tithe of 50 active families then yes the budget would not change. If the local Church does not have a mortgage the extra 30-50,000 should be used to start new congregations or to help the Church in some poor or devastated area of the world. The expenditures should be a statement of the Church's life and faith and not of its convenience or sloth.

CDL

Doesn't anyone have any facts and figures for their own congregation?

CDL

All I got is what our local RC parish has done. Sorry.

How would your studies, universal as you claim that they are, explain the remarkable success of small parishes that went on for centuries and continues now among both eastern Catholics and eastern Orthodox in the United States and in Europe?

You've explained the death spiral, which I contend is the same for a wide range of parish demographics, but you have yet to yield to the reality of the successes, except to deny that they are successes, rather forcing them, without any real data, to rest on some point in your continuum of demise and eventual death.

I think that is where you've not followed through, nor have the studies which give you such personal confidence to make the kinds of assertions that you've made for months here, speaking for this very particular Church. By your own admission you really don't know the Church very broadly. In fact you claim there is no need because you've studied Methodist churches.

I don't know any sociology department worth it's salt that would take that as a thesis defense. I think you'd be told to go back and do it properly.

I don't see where your conclusions are warranted, scientifically or statistically speaking.

Eli

Eli,

First, why are we not growing? Second, can every Church closing be blamed upon evil bishops? Third, it is easy to explain why some Churches remain small yet vital. In some areas its because village life remains about the same as it always has for centuries. Hence the Church remains stable as every generation continues. In other areas small churches follow precisely the pattern I outlined. They bring in new members and they export some of them to start new congregations in new areas.
Fourth, this isn't a college class.

Now, you keep suggesting that there are factors for which I have not accounted. That is good. Show us what they are. This isn't some game. We are all I thought looking for ways to make our church more vital. I didn't know the game was "I gotcha!" If that is your game, and it often seems to be, go play with someone else. I'm not interested.

CDL

I guess you think this passes for adult conversation.

Yes. I challenged your basic assumptions and assertions. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

You're reply was predictable I suppose, but it came as something of a shock, nonetheless.

Thank you.

Eli

Eli,

Stop playing this insulting game. Make your point or I'll simply ignore you.

CDL

All I can say is that the insurance bill came due today and that was $120,000 alone, not including the employees health insurance.
Then there is the $380,000 in wages. Then the $7000 a months light heating bill. And then there are all the little other incidentals.
So I would estimate it takes $20,000 a week to keep this place going. So around 1 million 4 hundred thousand dollars a year and then about 1 million for the School. Roughly 2 million 4 hundred thousand.
Stephanos I

Good sized Church I imagine.

CDL

Carson,

I find your Protestant background skews your whole thought. You made the right choice to go with the Byzantine Catholic Church and not to "Dox"...I agree totally that the Church is not simply a social club (I find that hard to believe coming from you since I see Protestant churches being more of a social club that offers programs to kids)...however, with Eastern Christian Churches being smaller than what you are apparently used to, I think, you, and others who grew up in the larger parishes, don't necessarily see reality as it is and rather as you want it to be...When Divine services are put on the backburner so there is no spirituality (since the priest is "too busy" and doesn't have time for that)the parishioners to remain together as a community need to get together to retain that community aspect...At HT we did it in the face of having a priest who was blatently trying to destroy it.

The Orthodox/Eastern way of "evangelzation" is "come and see" or "come and experience"...

For all your efforts with Fr. Loya for evangelization are frankly "nuts". Creating documents that everyone should receive chotki and learn the Jesus prayer for the great fast...that's not where you get people...We are called to live a holy life in the church...our daily actions show it...our daily actions should bring people in...the old "bring a friend"...not wasting thousands of dollars on it...I have given chotki to people, they say that's nice, maybe I'll try it...it dies...when someone notices it time after time and knows you and you life they may ask about it and then they understand how it effects a persons prayer life...they are then drawn into discussing it with the priest...the cycle begins of restoring eastern traditions...not "top down" or "we know what's best" that simply drives people away.

I know of a person who is a good friend who attended HT the last 3 or 4 years it was open...As much as he could see there must be some value he would not convert...less than 6 months after HT closed he is going to the same Orthodox Church I am attending...he told me matter of factly that he would have converted sooner but now sees the beauty of what we were talking about all these years and finally gets something out of it...he also specifically stated that he would not have spoken with Fr. George Malitz to even attempt it after seeing First Hand the contempt he had toward his people...There was a mother and her daughter...the mother has been married to a Greek Orthodox man for years...the mother was RC but attended HT for decades until the parish began declining with poor examples of priests in the 90's...the daughter is now old enough to choose where she wanted to go...she is (my present understanding is) going through convert classes with the Greek Orthodox and her mother is converting as well since she knows the East is where her heart is...Roger...RC who found HT...did not attend the last 10 years...within 6 months of HT closing converted to Orthodoxy...

I could go on and on regarding people who had the spirit of the east in them and returned to the Holy Orthodox Church...It was this skewed "new way of evangilization" that essentially closed HT and scandalized the faithful. It is clear...even with all obsticles that were thrown up...there was an eastern Christian Church there...the problem was, looking at it through a Western Lens couldn't see that...

Sorry for the tangent...but, at least to me, this whole effort clearly shows that the Roman Catholic Church is getting what it wanted through the Unia...Distruction of the Uniates...Personally, I say disolve the Uniate Churches and let those who are eastern return to their mother Holy Orthodox Church and let those who are "Roman Catholic" go to the RCC. This charade has gone on long enough...and is nothing more than a 400 year old scandal...

Thank you for sharing Job.

And your post shows what...?

CDL

Chris,

Is there some point you are making besides spewing your bile? The scab won't heal until you let it alone.

CDL

???

Sorry if the point wasn't clear...

You can not create a vision for the BCC if you don't understand it and only view it through a western lens.

You've also made it clear that you are still in pain over HTs closing and are taking it out on someone who is enthusiastic about the BC vision. Maybe Jesus was just a dreamer but I'm going to trust Him until proven differently.

CDL

Actually Carson...

I find the closing of HT to be a blessing in disguise...I knew for 20 years I belonged in the Orthodox Church...this was the imputus to make it happen...So I really don't find any wound that needs healing...

That being said...

I know that I am a rarity in the case of the approximately 20 closures of His Grace Andrew...This type of discussion disgusts me since the discussion never focuses on those who have given their blood, sweat and tears for decades than discards them like yesterdays news...I'm only in my 30's...As much as I gave and my family gave over the generations I guess it was easier to move on since my grandparents and mother are no longer alive and did not have to witness this immoral behavior...and most of my family (father and older brother) feel the same way I do and have for a long time...the BCC doesn't care about it's people...they only care about self perpetuation...Until that realization of being the core at the evangilization movement comes about...you're efforts are in vain...

That sounds heritical to me...how could GOD be "just a dreamer"

It only goes to show what a long way you need to go to learn about eastern christianity...before you can jump on the bandwagon about how to potentially expand the BCC...

It is a reflection upon your statements. I trust Him. I don't know about you. Nevertheless, I'm always open to learn even from a smart aleck but I'm not likely to take kindly to insult or to an attack upon Jesus Christ's prayer in St. John's Gospel chapter 17. Your attitude towards converts is a strange one since you have become one yourself.

CDL

Carson...I don't have an attitude towards converts...as you rightly point out I am one myself...

My issue with converts who leave where they are from and try to mold their new environment to that which they left...I understand, as a convert myself, the impulse to do that...the true mind of a Christian prevents us from taking those sorts of actions...

"the true mind of a Christian prevents us from taking those sorts of actions..."

Fascinating...

Please read your pm.

CDL

Carson I have read your PM...I hope you read my reply...

I think you are the one who needs to refrain from personal attacks...at least get creative

You make sweeping statements against people you don't even know. You practice what I advocate and claim that my conversion in inauthentic. Give it a rest. You are young yet you claim to have first hand knowledge of things that occured when you could not possibly have first hand knowledge of them. You twist what I say.

Enough. You may think what you wish of me. I intend to learn and evangelize. Go and do likewise.

CDL

Hold on gentlemen.

Dear Dan and Chris,

I seem to have started something here with my post to Carson, suggesting that we were not engaged in adult discussion at that moment.

That was too inflammatory for the person, the moment and the subject matter and I publicly withdraw that remark and apologize to Carson.

Be of good cheer and try to relax through this discussion.

Could someone please write to the moderator and tell him that I have accomplished what he asked of me, and done so sincerely and with good cause, it appears. I cannot reach his PM.

And tell him it is never necessary to threaten Eli. Eli, wrong at times, but not a child needing to be paddled, please.

Eli

This has been a good discussion, Daniel.

The situation in the Byzantine Church has its own integral causes and they are not singular in nature. Most growth or decline is mulit-causal.

Chris and I question the formulaic approach that you offer. In fact, we reject it. That does not mean we reject you. What we do not accept is the assertion that one need not know the target situation, one only need know how it works in other places.

You have still not responded to my saying to you that the Catholic Church has and continues to get most of her vocations from small parishes, between 600 and 800 families being the high end for "small", let's say for the moment, where the priest has been there for at least a full generation if a generation, for these purposes, is 12-18 years.

That data holds whether or not the priest is perceived as a "good guy" or not. Catholics have a way of recognizing 'holy' and can separate it from 'good guy' or 'great speaker.'

So there's more to this discussion than Baptisms and finance.

Eli

Eli,

I will make a stab at responding to you but I really don't trust you. We'll see what happens.

I have no doubt that most vocations come from smaller parishes. That is true in almost every group of Christians. I have never given a formula for size at all. Never. You and Chris read what you want to in my posts. It would be nice if you didn't but there you have it.

CDL

Mr. Lauffer,

In case you don't realize it. To say to someone publicly "I do not trust you." is to say to that person "You are not trustworthy."

That is a very negative comment and sets up a situation where I am now labeled publicly as untrustworthy, and like it or not those things are highly suggestive and do stick in people's minds and do have consequences that are not positive or loving.

I have never attacked you as a person, Mr. Lauffer, by labeling you in any fashion. At worst I have rejected your assertions and very recently suggested that the conversation was deteriorating.

Given your tendency to suggest very negative things about people who disagree with your ideas, I will wish you God's blessings and tell you that I will not refrain from commenting on any idea that I find on this Forum, but I will never again addres anyone who is willing to paint me in a negative light or complain about me if I respond to defend myself.

May God bless you.

Eli