www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall bishops, oooooooohhh

This morning I attended Divine Liturgy at the OCA cathedral in Ottawa. Every time I attend church there I am amazed at the way the bishop behaves. He is the gentlest, warmest person in the whole place. When he serves you don't even see him, you see Christ.
It is so frustrating to see bishops, who are these beautiful father figures, warm and inviting, even to strangers, and then to go home and get ignored by your own spiritual parents. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but dutiful respect for our hierarchy, but it is just that, dutiful.

hmmm.
I realize that there are bishops that look at these forums and I ask their forgiveness. Perhaps I shouldn't be airing out our "dirty laundry", but if it hadn't been for an extremely cold shoulder from many of our bishop's I would have probably been in seminary right now . Oh well.

God be merciful to me a sinner.

Ilya

(I am probably pushing it with this on but we'll see.)

Ilya's description of Bishop Seraphim is accurate, and I am happy that Ilya can recognize the Bishop's innate goodness, love and sense of humor. I can assure Ilya from personal experience that these qualities can also be found in some highly worth-while hierarchs of his own Church as well. That there are also some men whom one would prefer to see in other walks of life . . . well, where is that not true? Virtue is where you find it, so when you find it, rejoice. When you do not find it, redouble your prayers for your own bishop, not ought of a sense of duty, but out of a recognition of your own needs (and the needs of everyone else for whom the Bishop is responsible). Incognitus

Very true.

There are some bishops in our church that have that 'fatherly' sense. The best example I can think of is the reposed bishop ISIDORE (Borecky). Administerily he was a disaster (and from my understanding so is bishop Seraphim), but hey, that's what deacons are supposed to be for. The kind of bishop you could feel comfortable around, more of a feeling than anything else.
Well, this is a subjuct that hurts my heart constantly. What else can we do but continue to pray.

Ilya

I have found the Bisops that I have had a chance to be around very loving and nurturing. Praise God!

Epsecoially during my husbands ordination to the Diaconate. There were several prostestants and a few PNC there, they absolutely loved Metropollitan Basil.
One friend got to hear him twice. I think he had suce ha preconceived notion about Catholics, and when the Metorpolitans homilies hit him between the eyes, he was extremely impressed.

The bottom line is he saw the love of Christ!

Rose

Ilya,

Quick! Enter the seminary and become a bishop like Seraphim! I will be here for another 18 months to assist you! (Alex says you should come, too!) I can find you a couple of deacons who administer things well.... and don't start about unworthiness. Peter, James, John, Bartholomew, etc. ... they weren't exactly worthy in our eyes (and probably their own, too.)

father michael

Nice glasses.

I know I would end up opening my big mouth and getting kicked out.
Lord help us, the last thing you want is me for a bishop (the thought makes me sick to my stomach). Don't even say such things-absolutely no trying to be modest here.
But seminary is still very intriguing (my heart longs for Jordanville). We'll see.

Ilya.

And St Vlad's is chopped liver???

Saint Vlad's isn't what it used to be (so i've been told).
Jordanville makes me quiver in fear, Saint Vlad's makes me snikker (I know that's an awful thing to say, but I mean it in the best way)(I love their music).

sorry.

I wonder when the administrator is going to get on my back about my avitar. I will give it another day.
(Hi administrator!)

ilya

I like it (your avatar)!

C of S

Thanks,

When I get kicked off you can write in my defense.

They say that it is to big, against forum rules, but what are "rules"?
-can you tell I've been taking philosophy? rediculous.

I am being such an ass. I can't help it though, I'm 20 years old!! cut me some slack, man.

Gavshev

Ilya:

You raise an excellent point. Some of what you describe we have brought on ourselves by allowing Rome to impose its will upon our Church.

Other parts, well, it just goes to our human limitations in that a bishop wears so many proverbial hats so that it is impossible for one man to do all those jobs effectively.

However, you are more than correct when you say that this is where "deacons" come in. All too often people think of deacons in their liturgical role.

However, why cannot our Churches come out and say, by the way, we need not only those trained in theology, but we also need lawyers (both cannon and civil), MBA's, HR people etc. etc. etc. to serve as "deacons" in our eparchies and parishes.

Give such people the proper amount of training in liturgics, theology, scripture, etc. to allow them to effectively understand what they need for proper ordination to the diaconate, but draw upon their experiences in the secular world and allow them to assist the bishops in their administrative roles.

Oh, and, by the way, you can all keep your day jobs. Just a thought.

Yours,

hal

Hal,

"Oh, and, by the way, you can all keep your day jobs. Just a thought."

I have to juggle working a 40 hour week full time job, preparing for and teaching an ECF class and an adult class every week, preparing and giving a homily every other week, not to mention the odds and ends my pastor assigns me, spending time with my wife and kids, and taking care of my home. But I'll gladly take on another 20 a week job for no pay and more time away from family! :rolleyes:

Comments like the above are what make prosepctive married vocations say: "Thanks, but no thanks."

Why is it if a layperson has a job in the Church enumeration is expected to be commensurate with experience but an ordained deacon or priest is expected to do same job for nothing or peanuts? A married deacon or priest can simply not be expected to work a full-time job to support his family and then work another for free because the Church can't afford it. It is not fair to the man's family and it is not just.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Did somebody get your goat? :p

Dear Deacon Lance:

First, where the heck did I say that deacons did not need to be compensated for their services to the Church?

As for the "assignments," the point is that not every deacon has to serve at the Holy Table every week, give a sermon every other week, teach classes etc. etc. etc.

There could concievably be a deacon whose job is to be, for example, the lawyer for the eparchy. He can take certainly his turn serving, but that would not be his primary function. He sits in his law office, but when the bishop needs for someone to call up the eparchy's health insurer because they have not paid for priest X's kid's orthodonture, there he is.

Others could do the books, deal with personnel issues etc.

Still others would do what you and have as their primary function attending to the spiritual needs of the faithful.

If you think about it, what I say would lighten your workload as well in that some of those "odds and ends" that you pastor assigns to you may just somehow disappear. Think about it.

And, of course, we all get paid for our services as such.

I guess that one doesn't really need to be ordained to do what I suggest, but it would certainly add something to one's feeling of acceptance and belongining, don't you think?

Yours,

hal

I miss the goat...need another one to replace it with?

Illya, believe me I can completely empathize with your feelings. Speaking my mind to the hierarchy generally hasn't gotten me very far, either.

Even if I wasn't married I would be petrified beyond imagination at the thought of the episcopacy. I am even petrified at the thought of the presbyterate.

There's nothing wrong with the diaconate, you know. Our church needs good deacons, subdeacons, readers and cantors as well who know the services as it's a package deal for the restoration of the tradition.

Jordanville would definitely be hard to beat...but in defense of St. Vlad's Drillock et. al. have done some great work with music there.

Lance,

On this we can agree fully. Amen.

Neil

Our school secretary had a sign in her office which read:

'I work for the Church. Sure, the pay is lousy but the retirement benefits are out of this world!'

Well, if it makes any of the unpaid minor clergy & deacons feel better, I personally know a bishop who does not have a salary from his diocese, such is the state of stinginess in North America. He now lives in "the old country" where they know how to respect clergy and where they are using his invaluable erudition and fine pastoral qualities to great benefit for their own flock.

To quote him, "you do what you can do."

[It is interesting to note that the wealthiest states (New Hampshire, Massachusetts, etc.) have the lowest per capita donations to charity while the poorest states (Mississippi, West Virginia, etc.) have the highest per capita donations.]

While I was at St. Vladimir's Seminary, fellow students used to lament the precipitous decline in membership that the OCA suffered during the 1990s. I used to scandalize them with the riposte, "are you sure that it isn't God's will that the current Church in North America diminish and dissipate due to our lack of faithfulness and suffocating stinginess?"

They were not amused, but testimonies such as the one that I have relayed at the beginning of my post always lead me back to that question.

All that I can say is that "I'll do what I can do."

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Just to surprise you all - slightly off topic I know, but whilst the thoughts of money are fresh in your minds I thought you might like a few details about the remuneration for our RC Priests in Glasgow

Annual salary from the Archdiocese �2000 [ roughly US Dollars 3485]
Housing is covered - in the Parish house , likewise all living expenses like food , telephone etc.

If they have a car they buy it themselves
Clothing is their responsibility
Holidays are their responsibility

Oh- and there is no private health care for them - NHS is considered adequate.

I find Ilya's crack on St Vladimir's to be confusing. Where does he get such a strange idea that SVS is not "what it used to be"? What did it "used to be"? I love SVS and find it to be both spiritually uplifting, academically stimulating, and just a fun place to be--and I am not even Orthodox! He must be speaking to someone who has had a bad experience or is disguntled. Some people here don't like it but that is to be expected. Ilya should think about the fact that sometimes one person's opinion is not everything. SVS has many open houses and if Ilya were interested he could come to one of the retreats for instance.

Please do not judge what you have not experienced!

anastasios
(No, I am not being paid to endorse my school! ; )

I agree with anastasios. While I have not visited St. Vladimir�s in several years the last time I was there the whole place carried the presence of prayer. It has become a wonderful and desperately needed Eastern Light to the Western culture we live in.

I can suggest a positive interpretation to Ilya�s comment. Maybe he meant that not every generation is blessed with priests like Fathers Alexander Schmemann and John Meyendorff.

When I studied there, Frs. Schmemann and Meyendorff had departed, but their successors were not possibly any less qualified, blessed, talented, and dedicated.

My own time there was a special one that shall forever be a large part of my small (tiny) rock of faith.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Let us be more objective.

One of the advantages of being a minority in a country that has an enormous Protestant or Catholic majority like the USA, or even a smaller minority like in Mexico, is that our Churches are generaly much less contaminated by politics, interests, and all the things that are so common in the mainstram religion of the country, such as Roman Catholicism in my case. This is also because the mainstram relgion is always in the medias and examined all the time, and must respond to public opinion, while the Orthodox communities who are a very small minority, are more free to develop without pressures and there's a lot of brotherhood.

But on the other side, the same negative aspects of the Catholic hierarchy in Mexico (that they're too political, too involved with the government, state-sponsored) exist in Orthodox countries with hierarchs who are even more political and have less interest in the spiritual care of their flocks. In Greece for example, before Archbishop Christodoulos did the effort to "renew" the spirituality, many priests had become very much like burocrats who celebrated liturgies automaticaly and performed sacraments just as a job, mere employees of the state.

In these Orthodox countries a lot of people have converted to the RC minority because the sense of brotherhood and less burocracy is very good, and the RC is really a refuge for those christians who want a more free Church, with more love and less administration and the RC really has a very missionary attitude in foreign countries that is not followed here.

Now this doesn't mean that all are that way. I have known of very holy Roman Bishops and priests here who always put the spiritual matters as their most important goal.

There's also another important thing. Orthodox Bishops are chosen from the monasteries where their duties are mostly spiritual and are often very instructed in pastoral and spiritual issues, while Catholic Bishops are chosen from clergy who have a lot of academical and administrative preparation, but poor development in ascetism and monasticism, human relations, spiritual matters, etc. This is true for both Roman and eastern Bishops in Western countries who are appointed by the Pope in consultation with the local Roman hierarchy.

I did not mean to offend, I am sorry if i did. But I have many OCA clergy friends who give me the lo-down on things. I have also heard of the good things at Saint Vladimir's from a current student there. So don't get me wrong, it is still lightyears ahead of anything we have in the Greek-Catholic world. The Sheptytsky institue in Ottawa is trying hard and the Theological Universily in Lvov is also doing good work, but they are still in their infancy. Perhaps someday they will achieve such great renown as Saint Vladimir's in Crestwood.

Sorry if I offended,

Ilya

This is what confuses me. Why aren't our Bishops chosen from monasteries (in the proper sense of the term)? If we want to be truly catholic, we need to have bishops that are trult orthodox-in every sense, including monastic formation. I know, I know "what about basilians and redempterists?" I just don't understand how monks belonging to an order can be left alone to live in a house and run a parish. Even the ideas of "orders" are supposed to be foreign to our church. I would love to see some SSMI mansions turned into real places of obshestvennoye zhitie. In an observation made by a priest (who will remain nameless) of the current living situation of one of these "monasteries":
"If this is poverty, bring on chastity."

I know that this will probably provoke much defense- but I am trying to make the point that our duty, as given to us by Vatican II, is not to deviate from our true orthodox traditions. Where we have deviated, we must stive to come back to what is original. Where we have lost our traditions, we must look to the Orthodox for guidance. Many people will say that it was the Romans who were constantly trying to lantinize us. I say we are doing a fine job on our own.

Holy Father Alexis of Wilkes-Barre pray to God for us!
excuse me while i go hide under a pile of jackets,

Gavshev

Here I go- about to ramble again.

In the world of government, it is sometimes said that democracy is a very bad form of government, but that all others are worse. In the corporate world there is sometimes mentioned "the methods you learn in training, versus what you do on the job". Theory is one thing, practice another. Some things work, some things don't. So it is with the products of institutions of higher learning. There are those who admire one institution more than another, but in the parishes it becomes a matter of effective leadership and spiritual direction, practice versus theory. If a leader does not communicate and motivate the Faith well, his followers may have difficulty following his lead, because he gives an impression of having poor leadership skills, or not knowing what to do. Pedigree will not save a church leader or lay person in such a situation.

There is also a biblical warning, "Put not your trust in princes and sons of men in whom there is no salvation, etc." It is more important to focus on one's relationship with God, and how it can grow. This applies to everyone regardless of earthly status. After all, everyone is accountable for their spiritual life, whether their church hierarchy successfully gets its message across or not, and it is often more productive to work on things you have some control over.

In the final analysis, it will be Christ who saves, or doesn't, depending on how we conduct ourselves, regardless of status or the amount of burdens one takes.

I hope I haven't confused or offended anyone.

Dear Ilya,

Well, your point is extremely well-taken and it is one that is part of an ongoing debate among EC's.

Fr. I. Nazarko in his book on Kyivan Metropolitans writes about the lives of EC Kyivan Metropolitans and their "issues" with Basilians way back then.

One Metropolitan tried to forbid Basilians to teach in schools, saying that that wasn't the function of Eastern monastics.

Essentially, our Basilians, having been "reorganized" more than once by Poland, are a kind of "Eastern Rite Jesuit Order" and it is no surprise that their emblem is a Cyrillic form of the Jesuit "IHS" or "IXC."

As we know, our Basilians take the same Jesuit vow of loyalty to the Pope until their last breath.

The Studites alone represent traditional Eastern monasticism in our Church following strictly the Rules of St Basil.

St Nicholas Charnetsky was himself a Redemptorist, but completely adapted himself to Orthodox monasticism as did St Basil Velichkovsky.

These two did not allow even one change to the Orthodox traditions among which they found themselves. St Basil V. even complained, in his diary, that the Orthodox that had come into communion with Rome started to kneel for Holy Communion - even though he asked them to stay true to the traditions of the Eastern Church!

Rome has appointed many Basilian and Redemptorist Bishops for our Church - and it says it does so to remain true to Eastern Church tradition with respect to consecrating only Black, monastic clergy to the episcopate.

That is true, but then again it isn't.

Neither "Order" represents the spirit of true Eastern monasticism as the Eastern Churches know it.

That doesn't mean those Redemptorist or Basilian bishops who are around aren't "good" - it is just that other than the Studites, our Church's "Orders" are alienated from traditional Eastern monasticism.

The Orthodox Church, as I understand it, will sometimes allow a celibate, non-monastic priest to be consecrated a bishop - but then he must undergo the monastic rite of tonsure before his actual consecration.

One Ruthenian priest once wrote me to say, cheerfully in fact, not to worry about any of this since the "Orders" in North America will disappear in time to be replaced by true Eastern monastic communities . . .

But I don't see why those we have now, the "Orders," can't simply study Eastern monasticism and follow the ancient traditions, while dissolving their "Orders" as having gone beyond their "best before dates" and in keeping with the ideals of returning to our ancient traditions.

Alex

Reading this puts one in mind of the late Archpriest Georges Florovsky's lament in the 1950s upon coming to St. Vladimir's after his phenomenal formation in Odessa, Bulgaria, Paris and elsewhere. He regarded the students at St. V's as little more than hicks with only the barest rudiments of theological formation. Texts that were baby food in Europe, he said, were regarded by students at St. V's as "too difficult" even after 2 or 3 years of advanced study.

Reading this also puts one in mind that St. V's has had more than half a century to develop while the Sheptytsky Institute has gone from nothing to what it is today in 13 years. That includes, inter alia, an unprecedented multimillion dollar endowment, a trilingual academic journal read around the world, and, let us not forget, the ONLY place in the Western hemisphere where one may pursue advanced research degrees, including most notably the Ph.D., in Eastern Christian studies.

Dear Adam,

The Sheptytsky Institute is the primary choice for EC candidates for the priesthood, to be sure!

It has grown and developed by leaps and bounds and has the best people associated with it, as you know yourself . . .

Could those at the Institute ever take courses with St Vlad's or with St Andrew's in Winnipeg?

Alex

While selecting bishops from the monastery may be the ideal, even among the Orthodox this in some cases is a mere formality. This is not a slam against the tradition but just MOH observation. In the official biography of Patriarch Bartholomew on the EP website, there is no mention of his monastic years:
Biography of Bartholomew [patriarchate.org]


On the OCA website, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman, in less than two years as a monk is consecrated bishop. He had been ordained a priest 8 years prior to his episcopal consecration. See official biography:

Biography of Metropolitan Herman [oca.org]

The GO Archbishop of North and South America, Demetrios, has a career marked in academia, and only a brief mention as a member of the "monastic missionary brotherhood of theologians �Zoe�," prior to ordination.

Boigraphy of Demetrios [goarch.org]

I guess my point is that we need a dose of reality check before we think the Eastern Catholic episcopal selections must mirror the "romantic" notions that only a man of a monastic formation can be a good bishop. As noted in the biographies of this three hierarchs, the Orthodox, like the Catholics, value leaders who have "academic and administrative" preparation.

Dear Alex,

There are no formal relationships between these 3 institutions, but perhaps something may develop down the road. There are instances of individual 'cross-overs,' that is to say that some adjunct professors currently teaching here also teach on an ad hoc basis at St. V's and some students from St. Andrew's have found their way here.

More formal relationships or 'outreaches' of MASI are being explored, both within Canada and the US. I am not at liberty to say much more than that presently.

The institute is currently serving as an alternative to Saint Vlad's as a seminary for a few OCA students. Bishop Seraphim has expressed great interest in the institure -though for some reason he has never been formally invited.

To underscore Deacon Montalvo, the relatively new OCA Bishop Nikon for New England and the Albanians within the OCA was a married priest who spent years at a parish in Michigan. After his matushka fell asleep in the Lord, he went to St. Tikhon's in Pennsylvania where he was prepared for eventual elevation.

Widowers with parish experience have long been regarded as potential candidates for the orthodox episcopacy. St. Innocent, who missionarized in Alaska, is yet another example.

Not so. His name appears in our official guest book from a visit of his here in March 2002, in which he mentioned how delighted he was to be here "again," thus indicating of course that he has been here more than once.

But I would be happy to have him back again. Why don't we think of a way we can do this? Invite him to give a public lecture on some topic or other, etc., etc. There are many ways we can do that and I'd be only too happy to see it happen.

Any suggestions?

Dear Adam,

Well, Bishop Seraphim is not only a great Pastor and leader, but he is also very irenical and open to the Ukrainian situation.

He visits Ukraine frequently and is very welcoming of Ukrainians in the parishes he visits (I witnessed this myself).

(His Psalter makes use of "Kyiv" which is more than one could say for the official publishing policy of your Institute .

You should have him come to the Institute more often.

In addition to other things, perhaps he can also teach you Eastern gurus at the Institute to be more sensitive to Ukrainian issues.

Alex

Pray whom did you have in mind?! (This joint was founded by a Ukrainian priest, and the other two people on its staff are both Ukrainian priests.) And about which issues, kind sir? Or was that a reference to this unworthy scribe's views expressed elsewhere--and, just perhaps, taken to be something they are not?