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I agree!

Michael

Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!


AND YET AGAIN, I REINFORCE MY POINT BY REPEATING this:


It is utterly hateful and irresponsible to take an unchurched and forcibly dechristianized populace and open it to sectarian nonsense without first allowing those people to come to an understanding of Christianity on the terms which where deprived them by force of bayonet and concentration camp and mass grave in the past. Such attempts at "conversion" simply are nothing more than a spiritually cannibalistic opportunism which only exploits and the ignorance of a people and denigrates their freedom of conscience by material privation and sociological disconnect and fugue. This is akin to exploitation of minors or the handicapped for material and spiritual reasons and represents a totalitarian and deceiving spirit which lacks all charity. The imposition of such a belief system under these circumstances is an exploitation of a desparate and spiritually naive people. This is patently indecent and must be mediated by the imposition of some sort of moratorium and window to allow for the recovery of the spiritual consciousness of this people and this society which have brutally and illegitimately had it ripped from them.
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Prior comments by others completely discount the soviet pogrom and the coerced secularization of Russian society and they also do not address the point that I am openly advocating full freedom for these cults to practice once the historical inequity has been addressed and rectified. Lastly, relying on various misconceptions of the Imperial Church to shore up an anti-state church argument while ignoring sergianism and the millions of New Martyrs simply shows a self-contradictory mindset. I have flatly come out against sergianism, and the model I posited was that of Germany, where the government provides funding for religious institutions without any direct involvement and how this is amplified in Orthodoxy by the Greek State Church. No where did I ever put forward the model of Church subjugation to state. Now, what was utterly discounted about the Imperial Church was that it was fundamentally well versed in comparative theology and had developed a strong educational curriculum of apologetics which was broadly disseminated throughout Russian society. Let us not latch on to the tired rhetoric of "synodal Russian Orthodoxy" as being defunct in real function. One can only point to the Paissian Renewal as well as the Patristic movement under such luminaries as St. Makarios (Bulgakov), bl. +Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky), Professor Troitsky, et al to simply understand that the straw man of "dead church synodalism" simply is a mischaracterization by those who were pushing a more protestant and reformed (dare one say, "sophiological"?) model in their opposition. Although relatively subservient to the Orthodox Russian state at the top echelons, Russian Orthodoxy in its profuse acceptance and literacy and piety through almost all strata of society throughout this period, except of course the liberal intelligentsia and the majority of the debauched upper classes, was strongest and healthiest then than it had ever been. Can things be pursued better? Certainly. In this, I would point to the Orthodox Renewal in Greece as well the model of strong, independent Patriarchate espoused by the protagonists of "symphonia". To intrude upon this situation with pandering to such concepts as "democracy for the jws," one would have to concede that not all states espouse the American model of liberal democracy nor is it suited to them. Moreover, it would seem under this American model that nativity scenes are being branded "hate crimes", that our churches are dancing on the edge of a knife with their "conservative, anti-democratic, reactionary, fascistic" social agendas on such topics as abortion, gay rights, basic morality, open religious sentiment in public, even the movie THE PASSION, etc., etc., etc. The maxim for plucking the beam from ones own eye is apt here.
E D

Christ is Risen!

Hi Hritzko!
I meant to reply to this earlier because I felt that you have touched upon something very profound.

I work in the printing/publishing industry and when we think of those publishing houses that produce spiritual and religious materials quite often they are owned by a church organization. In our tradition the Seminaries and Universities often have that function. I think of St Vladimirs Seminary Press and the Byzantine Seminary Press as two such examples.

The JW's have turned this on it's head and are organized just like a publishing house that owns a church! If we could visualize the impact such a structure would have on church governance, even in the formulation of doctrine, it helps to understand how everything happens in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

Imagine if AOL/Time-Warner were to somehow buy a church. How would it influence the behavior of that organization?

The JW's originated in the greater Adventist movement of the 19th century. It wasn't unusual for the Adventists to promote their ideas by peddling their printed materials door-to-door on commision or percentage just like a completely secular publisher might. The term for such a person is a colporteur, and that is exactly what the JW missionaries were called until more recent generations when the term was changed to Pioneer. (We Orthodox and Catholics take a generally long view of history so 60-80 years ago seems recent)

So the idea that the JW's use Marketing techniques is correct, just like Avon and Tupperware and Mary Kay cosmetics, these people are selling God.

But I don't think for a minute that they have little faith, they have great faith at the street level. They product they sell, Yahweh through printed material, is one they make great sacrifices for. If they cannot sell the pamphlets they will buy their allotment and give the stuff away.

Brainwashed? Maybe, but anyone who drinks deeply of spiritual things can get hooked in a way that is actually detrimental to themselves. I suppose that is why we say a spiritual director is so important.

If people are reading their materials it is because they are hungry for spiritual direction and they are not getting it from the best sources. It could be that priests and catechists are overworked, or religous books are expensive. Possibly the liturgical language is a barrier to some. Who knows? I cannot say.

In the U.S.A. crystals, zen and peyote are reaching the people we have lost or overlooked. The JW's get a share of the market too.

I know that an awful lot of Americans are attracted to the "free" bible study offered with "no strings attached" in the comfort of their own homes yet the average American could probably walk to the nearest Orthodox or Catholic church they are so densely packed in the urban areas.

What keeps Americans from joining a bible study at the local christian church? If we could answer that we would probably have an insight into the success of the JW's in Europe.

In Christ Our Lord and Savior
Michael

If this is what cults can do legally in the US to keep former members silent, what do you suppose they would do in a place like Russia? Russia is doing the right thing. There is no way they can bring these groups to light of day.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/13/BAGIO640M811.DTL&type=printable

Dear Michael,

Thank you for your excellent assesment of the JW's.

Fr J. Thur mentioned several months ago about a market analysis which was being performed. If the study is performed correctly, the unmet needs of the potential (and even current) adherants will be determined. Once this is done, you will have to determine which segment you wish to capture based on your limited resourses. Then create a specific marketing plan in which you can promote the Byzantine church. Trying to be 'everything to everyone' may not be the most effective way to increase our membership.

The UGCC is going through the same thought process, on parish and eparchial levels. Unlike the Byzantines however, we have yet to begin active recruiting in many areas. We just expect people (mostly Ukies) to show up, and if they do not, don't worry be happy 'cause another boat load will show up.

Kyr Basil (Losten) is clearly trying to re-establish a rich parish life which suffered because of the priest shortage over the years. There are many new young priests arriving from Ukraine who are re-activating parish life. What is most amazing is that they want to offer services in English in addition to Ukrainian which has always been something we resisted. These young priest actually learn English in Ukraine, and show up here ready and able. . People are returning.

Do you guys ever have retreats and camps for the young. I think some of our Ukie organizations could possibly help out with summer camp facilities - at least in certain areas.

Hritzko

Christ is Risen!

Dear all,

I think that most hierarchs Orthodox, RC, and BC realize that they have a very serious God given responsibility relative to the salvation of souls. Hence like any concerned shepherd guarding the flock is a serious and noble responsibility that shouldn't be reduced or minimized to comments like "MP's paranoia". Religious freedom entails allowing detrimental wrong belief systems with predictable consequences as seen in a democracy or pluralistic society or society embracing heresy. How could any Christian argue against a Christocracy and for freedom of religion which conveys believe whatever you want to believe which is the antithesis of Orthodox RC or BC traditional theological positions. Perhaps religous freedom and such is really a form of bondage.

In Christ,

Matthew P.

Driving the JWs underground in Russia will not stop them. In fact, they thrive on persecution. It's happened time and time again in many countries. Even under the Communist regime they'd risen to over 100,000 in the Soviet Union. And that was with active persecution--deportation to camps, etc.

Some people naievely think the JWs will just leave Russia. They won't. The JWs prepare for this sort of opposition with underground presses and secret meeting places, etc. They even find ways to continue their "preaching work." So, this sort of effort is useless in stopping them. They're religious zealots who attract other zealots to their cause.

Expose is the only way to effectively stop them.

There are two arguments here on this thread against banning the JW's.

One argument states that all groups, of whatever belief system, have a fundamental right to function, prosyletize, recruit, etc. This argument has been given several times on this thread alone. Under this argument, the state cannot restrict any body that is considered a "religion" without violating fundamental human rights of some kind or another.

The second argument states that the ban is wrong because it will be counterproductive.

I can't speak to the second argument. It may be true, in which case I would oppose the ban on prudential grounds rather than on principle.

However, I think that the first argument is both false and pernicious (although sincerely held by most people in the "free" world). People do not have any more right to spread error (which detroys souls) than they do to spread poison which destroys bodies. Rulers have a fundamental duty to rule with an eye for their subjects' eternal well-being. Outlawing the promotion of the Jehovah-Witness cult is just common sense, it seems to me. Unless, of course, it would result in their further spread.

God bless all.


LatinTrad

Christianity Today has an interesting analysis of the ban on JWs in Russia (which was upheld 6-17-04:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/124/41.0.html

The upholding of any ban, anywhere, against any religion or religious minority strengthens the mindset of those who, in another time and another place, will ban another minority religion - and there, at that time, in that place, it may well be us. We ought to speak out on their behalf, in our own future interest, and because, as David so well states it, freedom of belief is a right that we should all cherish and protect.

Really?

Show me that in the Bible, please.

Chapter and verse.

My Bible says that we are to practice the Truth which God gave first to the Jews, fulfilled in Christ in Jerusalem, and entrusted to the Church in the depositum fidei.

I find NOTHING but condemnation in scripture for those who made up false ideas of "god" and practiced other forms of worship other than that which our Lord left here on earth.

You are too democratized. A tragic result of living in America. Americans think that God's kingdom is a democracy and we are entitled to choose what WE WISH rather than BE OBEDIENT to what has been given to us as marching orders.

God has spoken. All who have come after the formation of the Church (i.e., heretics such as Arians, Monophysites, Monothelites, Sabellians, Protestants, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and every other man made cult or sect) are REBELS against the kingdom which He has placed on earth.

Do you honestly think that God will somehow HONOR their rebellion and their deviant ideas of Who God is and how He is to be worshipped because "they were just so sincere?"

Give me a break.

And as for the issue that "some day it might be US who are banned"

SO WHAT!!

THAT is Christian history. The world hates us. Whenever they get the upper hand, they ban us, persecute us, outlaw our liturgies, and put us to death. Christ told us to expect this. Are we supposed to put up with false hood, heresie, and lies about God because someday we might actually have to suffer persection.

I ask you -- does untruth deserve a hearing?

Brother Ed

So, what do we do? Put them in jail? How about the old ladies who go door to door? Solitary confinement so they can't witness in the prisons (which they will do and they find a fertile field there)? Once we've imprisioned their parents do we put the children in foster homes so they can be "re-educated"?

These are serious questions. Once you ban a determined group like this you will have to deal with these situations.

Yes, these are serious questions. Sending someone's soul to hell with your damnable lies and satanic heresies is about the most serious business I can think of. Unless, of course, we are too modern and ecummenical to think of such old fashioned things as the "devil" and "damnation"

Seems like the most humane answer is some sort of quarentine for the entire family. Perhaps "JW City" or something like that where ONLY JW's live.

And all others be well warned of their soul damning heresies.

Of course, someone else did bring up the issue that the majority of Orthodox are about as concerned and practicing of their religion as a huntin' dawg who has lost his sniffer. I think the bishops ought to be rightly concerned in that area first. Seems to me that there are an awful lot of Orthodox AND Catholics who are in name only.

A fertile field for evangelistic work for our priests, bishops, and fervent laity.

Brother Ed

Ed,

People who think like you remind me of why I think the ACLU serves a valid purpose in this world.

That's quite a way you have with words.

Neil