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I found this article interesting and saddening. For those who believe the consecration of Russia requested by Our Lady of Fatima has already taken place (I, for one, do not), do these political operations of the current administration and of President Putin have any effect at all on one's opinion of the "conversion," or is it a wholly separate issue?



http://unix.dfn.org/FreedomHouseDowngradesPutin.shtml

Logos Teen

I don't know whether or not the Fatima consecration has been done. Some say yes, and others disagree. But I am not convinced that Russia has been converted. Yes, there is a resurgence of Russian Orthodox Christianity - a good thing. But there are still plenty of old communists in postions of power within that Church. Time will tell, I am sure, but I am not sure whether the Russian Church is being served, or being used by Putin.

Dear Friends,

I think that the whole issue of Fatima should really be dropped as it is highly offensive to Orthodox - really, for a number of Fatimist groups it is just a way for traditional Latins to promote submission to Rome in Russia (and when did the Fatima visions EVER mention union with Rome for Russia?)

That Putin and his gang aren't Christian - well, the United States isn't exactly a Christian culture either.

Those promoting Fatima would do better to worry about North America in the first instance.

Fatima can sometimes be promoted by certain Latins as if it is part of revealed doctrine that is to be accepted on divine faith by Catholics.

And it certainly is not. A Catholic (of any Particular Church) may reject Fatima and still be a Catholic in good standing.

Even the current Pope, in his brilliant letter on the Rosary, made NO mention of the Fatima decade prayer - and this is a Pope that is very devoted to Our Lady of Fatima.

To reject the old Roman triumphalism of the Fatima promoters is, in my view, to be a Catholic in even great standing.

Alex

Dear Alex:

As we used to sing in Plast after a particularly fine campfire sketch:

Bravo! Bravo! Bravissimo!
Bravo! Bravo! Bravissimo!
Bravo! Bravissimo!
Bravo! Bravissimo!
Bravo! Bravissimo!
Bravissimo!

Yours,

hal

Dear Hal,

One "Bravo" would have been sufficient!

Alex

I have to agree with Alex on this - I find the whole Fatima "Russia Conversion" issue offensive. The reason being that most who promote it mean "conversion to Latin Catholicism", which goes against Russia's 1,000-year Christian history. It also seems to me that it is used as a magical potion - "if the Pope just says these words, then all the world's problems will be solved!" Poppycock.

Regarding Russia's "resurgence" of Orthodoxy, I question that as well. I recently read where the number of practicing Orthodox in Russia is abysmally small. So much so that it might be true that there are more practicing Protestants in Russia than practicing Orthodox.

francis, I don't have first hand experience in 'Great Russia'---but in Belarus, I do...and I can tell you that the Orthodox churches in Belarus are FILLED DAILY for every service that is celebrated. I served the Liturgy on a weekday in the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit in Minsk for over 2,000 people standing for HOURS. In villages my experience was much the same. Open the doors, ring the bells, and have Liturgy or just a Molieben---and the place fills up fast...and not just with Babushkas either...but with young and old. Many of those in the cathedral in Minsk were young people from the university...and everywhere a humble piety that we don't even begin to understand, much less see here in the 'New World.'

Just my experience.

In Him Who is Born for us,
+Fr. Gregory

BTW, here is where I got this information:

From http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2004c/091704/091704a.php :

Furthermore, these two articles support that conclusion:

http://www.samford.edu/groups/global/ewcmreport/articles/ew05304.htm
http://www.samford.edu/groups/global/ewcmreport/articles/ew09304.htm

Alex, I cannot agree more. Chudovo, moya brattya.

This whole Fatima thing is merely a means and ploy for certain trad factions to get exactly what they want - wholesale conversion of Russia not to unity with Catholicism, but to a "Catholicism" limited to their narrow post-Tridentine liturgical, spiritual, and canonical outlook. May God and the Theotokos intercede to prevent such a fiasco. Thank God that is not the official position of the Catholic Church nor even the personal opinion of Sister Lucy, all various paranoid conspiracy theories aside.

And until that happens, any "consecration" uttered by a Pope will be suspect to a fringe element as we see here. His recent words in fact are to the contrary, that we Greek Catholics make all attempts to be closer to our Orthodox brethren.

The whole thing needs to be dropped. Father Gregory is right on the money, as usual. Rus' converted in 988, and it wasn't to post-Reformation "Latin Tradition", so get over it.

May Sts. Vladimir and Olha, Boris and Hlib, the Holy Fathers of the Pecherska Lavra, Dyr and Askold the Holy, the many holy ascetics of Rus, the numberless Holy New Martyrs under the godless atheists, many of whose names we do not know, the holy Fools for Christ of Rus', the holy hierarchs of Rus', may they all intercede for us and all those within the lands of Rus' to keep nothing more than "that which was received from our holy Greek Fathers" (first paragraph of the Union of Brest).

As Metropolitan St. Peter Moghila correctly observes in the forward to his Catechism, the interests of Catholics and Orthodox are common to prevent the "inroads of Protestantism" as he commented in the 17th century. With secularism plaguing not only the lands of Rus' but of the whole world, there are many bigger things on the plate than this sort of nonsense.

I am not an "apparition" person and tend to think many of them are pious delusions. But I have taken the Fatima messages about the conversion of Russia to mean a rejection of atheistic communism, not a conversion to the Latin Church. In recent discussions with an Orthodox priest, he said, "can you imagine what this could mean if true?" He went on to imply that Russia is the sleeping giant in Orthodoxy that is waking up. Because of it's size, the ROC could dominate world Orthodoxy and be a major force in Christianity. This priest also indicated that a revival of Christianity in the west could only come from the east, since the west is spiritually bankrupt. He was primarily referring to Europe as the west. He mentioned that the faith in Europe has almost dwindled away and the the east is the only place a resurgent Christianity could come from. Food for thought.

Dear Diak,

You mentioned something that I've had a very intense interest in and was wondering if you could help me.

You mention "Askold and Dir."

I know they have been venerated locally in Kyiv, especially by St Olha building churches on their graves (the Grave of Askold) after their deaths - a form of local canonization to be sure.

Met. Ilarion Ohienko mentions a feast of "Blessed Mykola Askold" on July 2nd.

Have these been formally glorified, even locally?

What is their status in this respect?

Any information would be greatly appreciated?

Alex

I pray greatly for an increase in devotion of Russian Orthodoxy. However, it appears to me that resurgent Christianity will come from neither the West or the East, but the South! (and I don't mean the U.S. "south" ). Both Europe and Russia have tiny numbers of practicing Christians, and America is too busy buying SUV's and watching reality TV to lead the way. But in the Southern Hemisphere, especially Africa, Christianity is booming. Perhaps the West/East split will be irrelevant in 500 years.

Hello,

I really don't believe that the Virgin of Fatima is calling Russia for conversion to Roman Catholicism. But rather calling to conversion or more accurately stating: preservation of Christianity in Russia when it was heading straight towards G-dless Atheistic country where they killed off many people from both the Catholics and Orthodox Churches in Russia.

For 70 years, it was against the law to utter the name G-d and to pratice Christianity unless it's controlled by the Government. 70 years, people do not know who G-d is.

That is what Our Lady was pleading...to PRAY for Russia. Don't you think it's an honor that Our Lady called for prayers for Russia? Not for Serbia, Poland, many many of the Eastern Bloc communist countries? That shows that Our Lady put Russia in high regard...the precious Russia converted to Christianity in 988 is to be commended.

Can you even furthermore imagine that Our Lady said that the "salvation" of the world depends on the Church of Russia!!?? WOW! What an honor! What a responsibility!

She was calling to Roman Catholic brethrens to pray for preservation of Orthodox Christian country, that has NOTHING to do with conversion to Roman Catholicism.

People per se may perceive that, but that's certainly not what Our Lady perceived and it's NOT the official Roman Catholic Church's perception either.

If people think it's for conversion to Roman Catholicism is very mistaken. It's for the boost of people's own selfish ego.

The current Holy Father's offer to help Russia to discover Orthodox roots was rejected by Patriarch Alexy as if it was a slap to the face. The Pope has NO agenda what's so over, his only agenda is to help the Orthodox Russia rediscover it's true roots. The Patriarch is filled with sinful pride, he's so blinded by it that right under his nose his country is currently rapidly converting to Protestantism (the untrue Christian churches) while the Orthodoxy is struggling even if it's growing. Russia is a large country with large populations, the Patriarch better get busy or accept the Pope's offer to help re-evangelize Russia to the TRUE TRUTH of the TRUE Faith which the Orthodox contain (as well as Catholic of any rites) while the Protestants do not have it.

There's so much work to be done, but it's not being done because of Alexy's sinful pride. I wish he will stop being filled with hate and despite.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

PS, Teen Logo guy, do you really DOUBT what the Pope said about consecration of Russia to Our Lady? That it's been fulfilled? Do you also really doubt what the surviving seer (Sr. Lucia) said that it's truly been fulfilled? SO MUCH DOUBT??? Yikes, not GOOD! You seem to value what "you" think rather than what these true witnesses said. Were you there when the Pope consecrated Russia? Were you there when Sr. Lucia said it's been fulfilled? Who do you want to believe? Yourself or those who actually did the consecration of Russia as requested by Our Lady herself? I pray that you are not into Fr. Guther's (sp?) group.

Dear spDundas,

I agree with you, but I think we really shouldn't be characterizing His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow in that way.

That he is guarded in his relations to Rome - that is something all Orthodox patriarchs are.

If we were in favour of women priests, we would probably think of Pope John Paul II as being "filled with hatred and spite."

There are those who feel that way about him because he won't cater to their particular agendas.

I've also come across Orthodox priests who would agree with you on the Fatima message as well.

Fr. Robert Fox SJ is a great Fatima promoter and there is nothing in his communications that is anything but respectful of Orthodoxy.

Interestingly enough, the devotion of the Saturdays to the Mother of God has a long history.

It was initially done in the West in honour of "Our Lady of Sorrows" which is why the Friday fast continued into Saturday (later eclipsing the Wednesday fast for which Rome was condemned by the East at one of the Councils).

Saturday was also the day on which the Lord rested after creating the world and Christ our God reposed on His Mother as if upon a throne etc.

The Irish had the devotion of the 15 consecutive Saturdays to Our Lady of the Rosary and the first Saturday of the month is dedicated to Our Lady of Fatima.

Alex

Fr. Fox believes wholeheartedly that the consecration has been done, and has personally visited and interviewed Sister Lucy. He is indeed quite respectful of Orthodoxy.

He has been one of the persons sponsoring Myrna (who gushes myrrh on occasion) and who delivers talks about Orthodox-Catholic unity.

Alex, regarding Askold and Dyr the Holy, their veneration is local, and I don't know that any formal glorification has taken place. Patriarch Filaret was considering it at one time for the KP. Their veneration is also not unknown amongst the Ukrainian Staroviery either.