www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Israel, Palestine, Hamas and Christianity

I saw in today's news that Hamas was claiming all of Israel as sacred Islamic ground and wondered where is the voice of the Christians in all of this?

I learned some time ago that the second largest landowner in Israel after the State itself, is the Orthodox church.

In all the controversy between Palestinians and Israelis, one never hears much about the Christians. They must be impacted by all this as well.

Dear Nonna,

If you get on to the thread 'Crimes Against Humanity', you will find quite a few posts on the Palestinian Christians. As for the Orthodox Patriarchate, it is the biggest landowner. They even own the land the Knesset is on, and I can't help but feel that they are highly resented by the Israelis.

Israel is a secular country, and I think the only thing that keeps them from finding ways to toss out the Patriarch, and all clergy, is the financial benefits they gain from the pilgrims.

As for the Palestinian Christians, they have been decreasing in numbers for years. It seems they are being used either as 'pawns', or caught in the middle. There are though many new Christians coming in from Russia and other nations. I recall going through a Roumanian Church during a service in order to reach a 'site'. Quite a shock! I believe it was in Jaffa.

As for Hamas, they are Muslims and believe that no one of another faith should have 'lordship' over them. As long as the Christians are a minority, and abide by their laws, and/or maybe pay a tax, they will be tolerated.

For while at least. By that I mean, until something happens and they begin to feel that their life is in danger. Then they will do what they have always done, immigrate to another country.

Zenovia

Waking Up Under a Green Sky in the Holy Land

By Maria C. Khoury, Ed. D.


An overwhelming shock in the Palestinian Territories was driving to school the day after the elections and seeing the green flags and green banners everywhere in Ramallah. It was announced that the election results would take several days before the final count and no matter how corrupt and negligent the Fatah Party of the late Yasser Arafat has been in the last ten years, it was assumed they would control the majority of the Palestinian Parliament as moderate people who can negotiate peace with Israel. We voted and went to sleep with these comforting thoughts and woke up with 76 out of the 132 seats in the legislative council going to Hamas, the extreme Islamic Resistant Movement recognized by their symbolic green flag. This is the new green sky we must look up to for leadership in the Holy Land.



The Hamas victory in the Palestinian political system simply means that the people were fed up with leaders who did nothing for them. They wanted a change and had limited choices. They want to shoulder the poverty, the poor health care, the Israeli occupation, the 60% unemployment, the absence of a social security system all on Hamas renowned for social services. This overwhelming political gain for Hamas was the only way for the voters to punish the Fatah party that forgot about the people and lived the good life while the majority of the Palestinians suffer to live on a few dollars a day. Even in a small Christian village like Taybeh, 28 votes went to Hamas and I was personally shocked why a Christian would vote for a fundamental Islamic position but it was the only revenge people could take to send a message to the Fatah party that they are fed up and Fatah has simply failed the people with no strategic planning and no political vision for the future.



As a Christian woman under a Hamas government, I am not at all worried that I have to veil up and wear the long skirts, this is the least of my problems and in order to keep walking the footsteps of the Lord, I will certainly follow these superficial rules. What really worries most people on the ground is which way Hamas will focus. Will they select a moderate point of view and transform themselves to be statesmen? Or will they select an extreme religious pro Islamic rule. Is it possible to separate religion from state politics?



In order for the international community to continue support for Palestine, it seems Hamas has no choice but to go moderate and first among all things accept living side by side to Israel. Ramallah is currently one of the few cities in Palestine that is modern, open in culture and thought and has some type of a night life. Most of us want to see Ramallah keep some of these liberal ways of life. Women walking the streets in western clothing have been acceptable. Men and women sitting together in cafes and restaurants do not turn heads. I feel if Hamas wants to be accepted by the world and survive in the long term, it must adjust some of its extreme fundamental view points and at a minimum not change the social and cultural rules in Ramallah. Gaza, Nablus, Hebron and Jenin are opposite social life of Ramallah. It will be very tragic to lose the Ramallah we know and love.



If Hamas selects a strict Islamic position it will isolate Palestine from any financial and moral support that the international community has offered since even before the Oslo Agreement. It will greatly affect our educational system if the Ministry of Education does not allow the current freedom of choice when it comes to the Islamic religion. In private schools, Christian students currently have the choice to take Christian religion instead of Islamic religion. Facing a new curriculum will be a challenge. If Hamas reinforces the strict teachings of the Koran where alcohol is forbidden, my husband better work on a new non-alcoholic Taybeh Beer recipe fast or the Taybeh Brewing Company will be shut down as three breweries closed doors in Iran.



These two alternatives for Hamas will greatly affect our life on the ground. But what worries me more is the struggle that could play out while members of Hamas or others members of the Palestinian Parliament try to influence the leadership for either alternative. We could be at the brink of a civil war or on the road to a moderate and democratic Palestinian state. The first indication of this battle revealed itself the moment Hamas members took down the Palestinian Flag in Ramallah and replaced it with their Party Flag, the green one to celebrate the victory that even Hamas itself did not expect. Of course shooting and fighting followed among all present. This fighting among Palestinians scares me more than seeing Israeli soldiers putting guns to my son�s head on the way to school.



Thus for the moment, all of us on the ground are waiting to see the sky either remain blue or turn green depending which alternative road Hamas will select. Pray for us as we are facing not only the Israeli occupation but the strict Islamic rule. May the ramifications of this political earthquake be bearable. Either way the Christian response if found in Matthew 5: �Love your enemies; Do good to those who hate you; Bless those who curse you; Pray for those who abuse you; Turn the other check to those who strike you.� For the Christian community, the new Palestinian government will be the earthly test for the true witness for Christ.



Note: Dr. Khoury is the chairperson of the Taybeh Orthodox Housing Project which has started to build twelve homes for Orthodox Christian families in Taybeh-Ramallah to help maintain the Christian presence in the Holy Land with the help of the Boston Greek Orthodox Metropolis.

It is entirely possible that the electorate backed Hamas, not for specifically religious reasons, but because many people see no point in the constant surrendering of the rights of the Palestinians to their homes, their land and their country.

"for the international community to continue support for Palestine" . . . Excuse me? I've not noticed this support. What I've noticed or not noticed is of little consequence - but if the Palestinian electorate considers that whatever support the international community is giving is negligible, and that a more realistic approach is called for, then it would seem to behoove the self-proclaimed "democrats" of the world to recognize that decision. Or are we faced with a situation which Tom Lehrer once described in these terms:

"They've got to be protected,
all their rights respected,
'til somebody we like can be elected!"?

Incognitus

Dear Icgonitus you said:

"It is entirely possible that the electorate backed Hamas, not for specifically religious reasons, but because many people see no point in the constant surrendering of the rights of the Palestinians to their homes, their land and their country."

I say:

I don't know what you mean? Certainly there will be less of a peace process with Hamas than there was before. Didn't Hamas say that it claims all of Israel as 'holy' Muslim land.

Now I'm Greek, and I have yet to hear that Alexandria in Egypt is Greek land, even though it was established by Alexander the Great, and they were there until they were thrown out by Nassar. I believe it was about 1960 or 1970.

Nor have I heard that the southern part of Albania is Greek land, even though it was taken over after WWII by communist Albania. I believe that's where Lord Byron's Greek troops were from when they were fighting for Greek independence.

Nor have I heard that Istanbul is Greek land, even though it was always a Greek colony, even before the Emporor Constantine made it the New Rome. The Christians were also in the majority 100 years ago and forced to leave during the pogroms of 1960 and 1970's.

Nor have I heard that Ismir (Smyrna) and the coast of Asia Minor is Greek land, even though they were in the majority, and two million plus were being massacred and being forced into the Aegean in 1923.

Nor have I heard that the Pontus regions of Turkey is Greek land, even though hundreds of thousands were being massacred and forced to immigrate to Greece in 1923.

Now I know that the same could be said by many countries and many people... especially in the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

So tell me, what is going on with the Palestinians? Could it be the 'Muslims' think differently about land than we Christians?

As for what Maria said about support from the international community, The Palestinians depend on financial support from the EU and US to survive. Remember, because of all the suicide bombers, the Palestinians are not allowed to enter Israel to work...and the Muslims have no business class.

What has become fearful is, if that support is not forthcoming from the West, Iran will have to take it's place. The situation must be quite frightening to people like Maria, especially since her livlihood is against fundamental Islamic law.

There is another point though. Maybe the Christians in Tehbeh believe that they would have been better protected by the Palestinian authorities during the recent attacks on them by 300 thugs, if they were a truly Islamic society.

Zenovia

Hi Zenovia! Thanks for pointing me to the other thread.
It's interesting you would say Israel is "secular." My understanding is that the Orthodox Jews actually have quite a bit of control there...I'm trying to remember what it was they were claiming that only marriages performed by them were valid? Or something else. My memory fails me on what it was exactly. But I don't know, does Israel have a concept of separation of church -- or rather synagog and state? That's not my impression, but I could be wrong. I have not studied the situation in much detail, but I have always wondered why one never hears from the Christians. Israel is considered a Jewish state, and yet it seems to me that it really needs to be a pluralistic state given how many different ethnicities claim a piece of the pie.

Dear Nonna you said:

" Thanks for pointing me to the other thread.
It's interesting you would say Israel is "secular." My understanding is that the Orthodox Jews actually have quite a bit of control there.."

I say:

Actually, it was the 'Zionists' that wanted to establish a state of Israel during the last half of the 19th century, probably because of the pogroms in Russia. What they wanted was a purely secular state that would be for the Jewish people.

During WW I, the wealthy Zionists in England pressured the English to give them the land of Palestine. England was in a spot because the people in Palestine resented the Jewish immigrants coming from Europe...but it decided that it would give them some of the land under it's control.

Well, England used it to her best advantage. Her planes threw leaflets down on the German army, saying that Jewish soldiers should not fight for them because it was England not Germany that was their friend, and that they were giving them a homeland...if one should wonder why the Nazi's resented them. Of course there were other reasons too, but that is neither here nor there.

In Israel they follow all the Jewish religious customs such as not serving milk products with meat, etc. I recall that in the morning we would have milk, cheese, fish, eggs, and in the evening when meat was served, there were no milk products. The deserts were made with artificial milk, and frankly you could taste it!

The worse thing though was to be caught on the Sabbath elevator, because on the Sabbath one was not allowed to do anything, even turn on a light. The Sabbath elevator, to one's chagrin should they be on it, would automatically stop at each floor.

As for the Orthodox Jews, I recall seeing leaflets years ago by a certain Orthodox Jewish group saying that Israel shouldn't exist, and that they were a religion not a 'state'. Others though are fanatic about the state of Israel, and many of them had become settlers in territories that were occupied during the six day war. They firmly believe that the land belongs to them because the 'Bible Tells Them So'.

The Orthodox Jews are a minority though. Israel is though, and always was a 'secular' state.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,
Where have you been? You've never heard that Northern Epirus is Greek land? You've never heard that Constantinople is Greek? Or Smyrna? Or the places from which the Greeks were "ethnically cleansed" by force and violence in the twentieth century, while the English and the French folded their hands and shed crocodile tears?
But it seems to make a difference which side of the street one views things from. There is righteous indignation from the same crocodiles when the Serbs claim what has been their own territory for quite some time and still is their own territory. But when the Greek Cypriots insist on the return of their own lands and homes on Cyprus, something seems to be wrong with that claim - although not in my eyes.

The Palestinians, let's face it, were turned into a sacrificial victim after World War II so that the same people who sat by and shed more crocodile tears over the mass murder of people by the millions at the hands of Nazi Germany could somehow feel better at the expense of the Palestinians, who were not to blame for what the Nazis did. Hamas is not seeking to right the wrongs of even a hundred years ago - but they do want their land back and their country back. The justice of that claim is indisputable.

Incognitus

I learned that one of the foremost schools of Eugenics was based in England and that historically the Brits were just as racist as the Germans. Well eugenics was a quote scientific theory unquote accepted by the dominant cultures in Europe. It was suggested that establishing Israel was a way to move the Jews out of Britain.

The zionists: perhaps they are the most outspoken in the US which is why I've had the impressions I have.

This is part of an official statement by Hamas this weekend which I just heard on television:

They will not recognize the state of Israel.
They will not renounce terrorism.

Lord have mercy!

Alice

Dear Nonna you said:

"I learned that one of the foremost schools of Eugenics was based in England and that historically the Brits were just as racist as the Germans. Well eugenics was a quote scientific theory unquote accepted by the dominant cultures in Europe. It was suggested that establishing Israel was a way to move the Jews out of Britain."

I say:

You are right. The Brits were extremely racist, and I could give quite a few stories. The French though were also, as were all the Western Europeans, and undoubtably the Eastern one's too. The only difference was that the Western one's were racist towards Eastern Europe as well as Southern Europe.

When Adolph Hitler was told by the League of Nations not to increase his armaments, he was furious. He said: How can we obey a group that is composed of people as inferior as the Czechs.

Also one of the reasons for WW I was that Germany was fearful that they would be engulfed with the inferior Eastern culture of the Russians.

There is a book I recall by the Smithsonian called "Apes and Angels". It has pictures of the Irish who were undoubtably suffering from malnutrition, showing how they resembled the apes because of their 'potato' mouths. I was also told by an old WASP man in my youth, how they were taught that the Irish were an Oriental culture. Undoubtably because they were Catholic.

To give you an idea of how far the idea of rascism and this concept of superiority had proceeded in the 19th and early 20th century, one has to look at the early comics of Superman. The Europeans believed that the ancient Greeks were a pure Arian race...which is nonsense, and was proven in another book at the Smithsonian called 'The People of Lerna'. But since the original 'Hellenes' had receding chins and jaw, as did the Romans, Superman is depicted with that receding jaw.

A protruding forehead was a sign that one was bright since it was the furthest from the appearance of the ape, and so on. I even recall my mother telling me that.

Zenovia

Dear Icognitus you said:

"Where have you been? You've never heard that Northern Epirus is Greek land? You've never heard that Constantinople is Greek? Or Smyrna? Or the places from which the Greeks were "ethnically cleansed" by force and violence in the twentieth century, while the English and the French folded their hands and shed crocodile tears?"

I say:

Of course they were Greek lands, but I don't see the Greeks sitting in concentration camps and having the refugees dwelling in poverty and suicide bombers blowing others up in order to reclaim the land. It's gone it's gone.

You said:

" There is righteous indignation from the same crocodiles when the Serbs claim what has been their own territory for quite some time and still is their own territory."

I say:

And there should be righteous indignation when they were forced to leave their homes because of terrorists. Let's see when the time comes that the Dutch, English, Spanish, Italians and French are forced to do the same thing because of Muslim terrorists, if you will be saying the same thing...And believe me, the time is coming.

You said:

"But when the Greek Cypriots insist on the return of their own lands and homes on Cyprus, something seems to be wrong with that claim - although not in my eyes."

I say:

The Greek Cypriots want some sort of restitution, but realize that the new generation of Turks are now as much a part of Cyprus as they were. They are the one's that want Cyprus to be one nation. It is the poverty stricken Turks on the other end, that also wants to unite but is hindered by Turkey and it's demands.

You have to understand that the problem with Cyprus and why a solution was not made sooner was because Turkey wanted rights in certain parts of the Aegean. Greece adamantly refused, and insisted on retaining her rights as far as the laws of the sea are concerned.

Greece also insisted tha Cyprus was a separate nation, and any solution that would be made, would involve only the two ends of Cyprus. The one side Greek, that had become excessively wealthy, and the other side Turkish, that had become poverty stricken with all 'our' money going to retain the Turkish troops.

You have to realize something else though. The Greeks might have been kicked out of Greek lands in the millions, but they were lucky enough to have a country to go to. One that was willing to take them in.

The Serbs today and yesterday in Kosovo also had a country to go to free themselves from terrorism. The Armenians didn't, and that's why so many were exterminated. Neither did the Jews.

Now this is why Israel must and will remain a 'Jewish' state. There is no way they will leave. The Palestinians on the other hand, do have Arab lands to go to, it is just that in the Muslim religion, once a land belongs to Islam it can never be under the control of people that are not Muslim. So we have an immovable object, and an irresistable force.

Zenovia

So true Zenovia. I never understood the purpose of the statutes of limitations in U.S. law, until thinking about ancient grievances and claims.

Many peoples have been the subject of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Many peoples have lost their ancestral homelands. The German holocaust claimed 11 million victims, we often only hear about the six million but many peoples were swept up in their eugenics program. The slavs were considered subhuman too, like the Jews and the Germans would have exterminated more of them than they did, all of them -- if they didn't own guns, and have armies that could fight back.

No one remembers the Armenian holocaust/genocide. And that was even what emboldened Hitler in his atrocities.

The Palestinians were victims, but they also have launched wars in which they lost.

I think the reason why Hamas won the election is because of the pride of the Muslims. They wanted a powerful charismatic leadership and that is what Hamas offered to them independent of its manifesto statements. It satisfies their pride. Just as many people support the Bush administration because they seem to project an image of power and charisma to their constituents who ignore the details.

But I digress. To me there is still pain from all these hurts and losses. There is no statute of limitations in the court of world history and personal experience. I noted that you had mentioned with distain people's memory of the Fourth Crusade. I think there are plenty of reasons why the pain of that still lingers. And it makes me think of the South where the Civil War seems to have just happened yesterday!

The real question, it seems is how can we achieve reconciliation? In my work as a mediator I notice that people repeat grievances when they feel they haven't been heard. It's an uncontrollable impulse. And I have seen how in a mediation when true intimacy is achieved, when the one side hears and the other side feels heard, then resolution becomes possible. So many times, the reparation that has the most value, beyond money, or land, or any other material wealth, is an acknowledgment of wrongdoing, an appreciation of the pain suffered and a sincere apology.

Apologies are just words, but they are also so much more...

I also remember the description of history: History is not what happened, its what we remember.

There is something about being forgotten, unacknowledged that is painful. It silences those who tried to speak out about their suffering or injustice, like a howling wind carries away the sounds emanating from one's throat...

Dear Nonna you said:

"There is something about being forgotten, unacknowledged that is painful. It silences those who tried to speak out about their suffering or injustice, like a howling wind carries away the sounds emanating from one's throat..."

I say:

Beautifully said! I think that is how the Armenians feel. They know that Turkey is not a wealthy nation, and that certainly they would not be able to make reparations after so many years. I believe all they want is an apology and a recognition by the Turkish government that they did commit the attrocities.

Now to play devil's advocate, Turkey was being torn apart after WW I. The lands Turkey still retained in the Middle East were being carved up by England. Basically, she had very little land that she could really call her own, and a very high population, so she became quite brutal in her reaction.

Now I have heard that if Turkey remained an Islamic state and Attaturk did not try to make it a purely secular modern one, those attrocities probably would not have occurred. So there are pro's and con's to everything.

Zenovia

Dear Incognitus,

And where have you been?

Do you deny that Hamas was the creation of the U.S. and its allies to be a "counter-balance" to Fatah?

That Hamas was trained and supplied until it turned on the U.S. and Israel?

Did not the U.S. train and supply Saddam Hussein? Did the U.S. not release Ayatollah Khomeini and helped bring down the Shah of Iran?

This is simply another case of U.S. foreign policy mismanagement.

To say that this or that party or power cares about the fate of the Palestinian people and their plight - is simply naivete to the nth degree.

Alex

Dear Nonna,

I want to respond to one more thing you quoted in a post:

"It was suggested that establishing Israel was a way to move the Jews out of Britain."

I say:

I don't think that there were that many Jews in Britain. Most of the Israeli Jews came from Eastern Europe, especially Russia. It could be something the Arabs might believe, (great imaginations). The Jews were all expelled from England centuries ago. Actually though, as racist as the British were, they might have been better than other nations.

Many wealthy Jews became Christians and ended up as part of the English nobility. I believe Disraeli, who was Prime Minister under Queen Victoria, was Jewish. But then again, there was also the house of Rothchild in Germany and France, and I believe they were all barons. As here, it was prabably the lower classes that were the most racist.

As an example I recall listening to an Englishman that was a soldier in Russia at the time of the revolution. He said one of the soldiers was taking shots at a Russian general because as an Englishman, he considered himself superior. Little did he realize that the general might have been related to his king.

Now I know that Winston Churchill's mother was an American, and his father was Lord Randolph Churchill. Her mother was an American of French descent, and her grandmother an American Indian. When Winston's father died, his mother wanted to marry a certain noble Austrian.

The marriage could never take place though, because the Austrians were adamant about their lineage, and what they referred to as'quartering'. In other words, they had to make sure that every side of the family was of 'noble' blood. When it came to the English, the Austrians were highly chagrined at the mixed blood.

Zenovia

here was a great item on BBC last night.

BBC interviewed some Chrstian Palestinans and one or two regional Hamas leaders yesterday. I assume that the Christians were members of Fatah or groups to the left of Fatah bewcause of the political line they took.

The Christians were divided on how to respond to the latest news from Hamas. The women interviewed in Ramallah--and one fellow--said that they will resist or leave the country if matters become intolerable. They sounded strongly pro-Fatah or pro-PP.

This would make winning the right to return for all refugees all the more important for us.

Nadeem Khoury, brother-in-law of Maria Khoury and part of the family who own the Taybeh Brewery, took a more accomodating position. Taybeh Brewery is now producing a non-alcoholic beer bottled in "Hamas green" and may produce a root beer as well in the future. Thank God, the brewery is running! It has survived the occupation and Israeli incursions into Taybeh by marketing a great beer in Europe.

The Hamas leaders interviewed spoke in more complex terms and indicated that Hamas is divided on how to proceed.

bob r.

Thank you very much Bob!

I'm not surprised the source would be foreign press. I think sometimes the reason we don't hear about the Christians in the Middle East is due to the biases of the US press.

Certainly there was never much press about all the churches being destroyed in the East.

Dr. Khoury provides an interesting voice in the whole Israeli-Palestinian debate. I find her faith refreshing in the midst of the horror that region experiences each day.

Given the vow of Hammas to establish sharia law I am praying that the Christians in the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority are not going from bad to worse. When I read the piece that Bob posted I could not help but think how the Ukrainians originally welcomed the Nazis as liberators from the Communists.

From some of the Palestinians I have heard interviewed in this past week it seems possible that the vote was less outright support for Hammas and more anti-status-quo.

[PS: Bob, please check to see if the story was copyrighted. If it is, please send me the link and I will update your post to replace it with a link and a summary.]

A statement from Hamas just in. Note the olive branch being extended to Christians.

We appeal to the American people's sense of fairness to judge this conflict in light of the great thoughts, principles and ideals you hold dear.

By Mousa Abu Marzook

DAMASCUS - A new era in the struggle for Palestinian liberation is upon us. Through historic fair and free elections, the Palestinian people have spoken.

Accordingly, America's long-standing tradition of supporting the oppressed's rights to self-determination should not waver. The United States, the European Union and the rest of the world should welcome the unfolding of the democratic process, and the commitment to aid should not falter. Last week's victory of the Change and Reform Party in the Palestinian legislative elections signals a new hope for an occupied people.

The results of these elections reflect a need for change from the corruption and intransigence of the past government. Since its creation 10 years ago, the Palestinian Legislative Council has been unsuccessful in addressing the needs of the people. As the occupation solidified its grip under the auspices of "peace agreements," quality of life deteriorated for Palestinians in the occupied territories. Poverty levels soared, unemployment rates reached uncharted heights and the lack of basic security approached unbearable depths. A grass-roots alternative grew out of the urgency of this situation. Through its legacy of social work and involvement in the needs of the Palestinian people, the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) flourished as a positive social force striving for the welfare of all Palestinians. Alleviating the debilitative conditions of occupation, and not an Islamic state, is at the heart of our mandate (with reform and change as its lifeblood).

Despite the pressures of occupation and corrupt self-rule, Palestinian civil society has demonstrated its resilience in the face of repressive conditions. Social institutions can now be given new life under a reformed government that embraces the empowerment of the people, facilitates freedoms and protects civil rights.

Our society has always celebrated pluralism in keeping with the unique history and traditions of the Holy Land. In recognizing Judeo-Christian traditions, Muslims nobly vie for and have the greatest incentive and stake in preserving the Holy Land for all three Abrahamic faiths. In addition, fair governance demands that the Palestinian nation be represented in a pluralistic environment. A new breed of Islamic leadership is ready to put into practice faith-based principles in a setting of tolerance and unity.

In that vein, Hamas has pledged transparency in government. Honest leadership will result from the accountability of its public servants. Hamas has elected 15 female legislators poised to play a significant role in public life. The movement has forged genuine and lasting relationships with Christian candidates.

As we embark on a new phase in the struggle to liberate Palestine, we recognize the recent elections as a vote against the failures of the current process. A new "road map" is needed to lead us away from the path of checkpoints and walls and onto the path of freedom and justice. The past decade's "peace process" has led to a dramatic rise in the expansion of illegal settlements and land confiscation. The realities of occupation include humiliating checkpoints, home demolitions, open-ended administrative detentions, extrajudicial killings and thousands of dead civilians.

The Islamic Resistance Movement was elected to protect the Palestinians from the abuses of occupation, based on its history of sacrifice for the cause of liberty. It would be a mistake to view the collective will of the Palestinian people in electing Hamas in fair and free elections under occupation as a threat. For meaningful dialogue to occur there should be no prejudgments or preconditions. And we do desire dialogue. The terms of the dialogue should be premised on justice, mutual respect and integrity of the parties.

As the Israelis value their own security, Palestinians are entitled to their fundamental rights to live in dignity and security. We ask them to reflect on the peace that our peoples once enjoyed and the protection that Muslims gave the Jewish community worldwide. We will exert good-faith efforts to remove the bitterness that Israel's occupation has succeeded in creating, alienating a generation of Palestinians. We call on them not to condemn posterity to endless bloodshed and a conflict in which dominance is illusory. There must come a day when we will live together, side by side once again.

The failed policies of the U.S. administration are the result of the inherent contradiction in its position as Israel's strongest ally and an "honest broker" in the conflict. World nations have condemned the brutal Israeli occupation. For the sake of peace, the United States must abandon its position of isolation and join the rest of the world in calling for an end to the occupation, assuring the Palestinians their right to self-determination.

We appeal to the American people's sense of fairness to judge this conflict in light of the great thoughts, principles and ideals you hold dear in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the democracy you have built. It is not unreasonable to expect America to practice abroad what it preaches at home. We can but sincerely hope that you use your honest judgment and the blessings of ascendancy God has given you to demand an end to the occupation. Meaningful democracy cannot flourish as long as an external force maintains the balance of power. It is the right of all people to pursue their own destiny.

Bob,

Please provide references to these statments you post. If you do not we will be forced to assume they are copyrighted and will have no choice but to delete them.

Admin

Alex,

Few people care much for the Palestinians whether they be Christians or Muslims. They have been used as pawns since at least the Ottomon Empire by just about every nation in the world. Does anyone really trust the motives of any nation there? Even Fatah didn't really care for the Palestinian people. But maybe Hamas will be unique without destroying everyone in its path. I don't know that stranger more unexpected things than that have happened but it could.

Administrator,

I too would like to see the links to Bob's articles.

CDL

I received the message by e-mail via Palestinian support networks I belong to.

I understand that the piece by Hamas also ran in the The Washington Post yesterday, but I rarely read The Post these days.

The Maria Khoury articles come without copyright. I have asked her to directly address the accusations made here against Palestinians and her and she said that she would write an article for us.

Does anyone have reason to doubt the veracity of any source or article I sent in?

Be well.

bob r.

I will be happy to provide a daily or weekly basket of links on Palestine from reputable world news sources, and from Palestinians themselves, which support the points I have made here. If this is desireable, please let me know.

Be well.

bob r.

Bob,

I think the issue is not veracity of the source, but what the administrators are concerned about is that if you are posting an entire copyrighted article from a news web site, a URL needs to be included.

If what you posted was actually a "press release" issued by Hamas, then I don't think there's a copyright issue.

Cheers,
Nonna

Regarding the Palestinians, or the Christians of Palestine rather. I've wonderered how many of them are actually genetically Jewish. Some of the first Christian communities were Jewish. I could imagine that Israel would never recognize them as ethnically Jewish...

Has anyone heard about the book Crossbones by Kathy Reichs? it is a novel based on some true anthropological mysteries. Apparently in the real life version of some of this the Israeli authorities are blocking the work of scientists because of the fears of what their forensic genetic tests might reveal about early Hebrews and Christians. (At least that's my imperfect understanding of the controversy).

I don't know what "genetically Jewish" means.

Most people in the mideast are semitic and semitic peoples can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Jacobite, Nestorian, in the fire cults, disciples of John the Baptist, Samaritan and more. I know of one surviving Samaritan community and one community which follows John the Baptist. You have to be careful and not confuse race, ethnicty and religion with one another.

Palestines are diverse because of having Jewish, Muslim, European (Crusader)and European (colonizer) roots or influences and intermarriage. There are Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims and Israeli Arabs. The Israeli Arabs have been isolated since 1948 from Palestinians.

Eastern, or so-called "Sephardic," Jews may be racially or ethnically different than Ashkenazi (European) Jews but live relatively difficult lives: the Sephardim form a majority but hold little political or cultural power. God willing, the upcoming Israeli elections will change this.

Sephardic prayers and music are especially beautiful. Many Palestinians likely see the Sephardim as brothers despite the Sephardim having moved so far to the right since the 1960s. If you would like to hear Sephardic prayers or music, I will send you some by post.

I know many Palestinians, Musim and Christian, who regard it as a tragedy that an independent Palestine may not include historic Sephardic communities.

Left wing Arab and Palestinian parties have historically garnered the Christian vote. Hamas just picked up a stronger Christian vote.

I think that it is best to understand and refer to us all--Christians, Muslims and Jews--as part of an Abrahamic family. I know that people on this forum will disagree.

Overall, I also think that it is problematic to view race and genetics as something other than a softly blending spectrum of possibilities. The view of races as separate categories, and as genetics forming race, seems incorrect. The political and cultural extension of this incorrect idea in the region becomes Orientalism. Edward Said's great book on this is a must-read.

Be well.

bob r.

Dear friends:

It's not possible to establish two separated states in such a small territory. Moreover, there are Jews and Arabs both sides of the border, it's not possible to relocate them without causing them harm because there is no more land. And all thanks to the British Protestant Empire!

I do respect the right of the jewish people to exist and have a country of their own. However, I wish those who unbashedly support Israel (the "Jerusalem Embassy" group for example) applied the same criteria in cases such as that of my nation which has been cut in half and has half of its national territory anexed by the force of conquest to other country even though these places have always been Hispanic and Catholic for centuries, with a majority of Mexicans.

Even today, most Americans ignore this part of our common history.

The great SciFi writer, Isaac Asimov, once predicted what was going to happn in the Middle East: people who were evicted from their homeland and would never forget this. He proposed that the only acceptable sollution was to allow controled inmigration of Jews but grant the Holy Land (and Jordan) the status of an International Territory, for all Jews, Muslims and Christians. At that time this was possible, as the religious component of the Middle East politics was not that strong.

Even if the Arabs opposed that, the presence of International soldiers to keep order was more accceptable than a German-Ashkenazi milicia willing to take revenge of what happened to them in WWII.

Dear Bob you posted:

"Our society has always celebrated pluralism in keeping with the unique history and traditions of the Holy Land. In recognizing Judeo-Christian traditions, Muslims nobly vie for and have the greatest incentive and stake in preserving the Holy Land for all three Abrahamic faiths. In addition, fair governance demands that the Palestinian nation be represented in a pluralistic environment. A new breed of Islamic leadership is ready to put into practice faith-based principles in a setting of tolerance and unity."

I say:

Yes the Muslims were always tolerant of other religions as long as those of other religions paid taxes and that the Muslims were not under the leadership of anyone that was not Muslim. In other words, the Muslims must always be in the majority in any nation where they live.

I recall hearing that by a Pakistani Muslim when interviewed on TV. He stated that the Muslims consider themselves persecuted. When the announcer said what do you mean by persecuted, he replied that "we consider ourselves persecuted wherever we are not in the majority".

Now can one truly believe that after all the remarks that have been made by the Arabs througout the world and since the state of Israel existed, that if the Palestinians were given the right of return that they would actually not persecute the Jews and not throw them into the sea?

Zenovia
-------------------------------------------------

Dear Nonna you said:

"Regarding the Palestinians, or the Christians of Palestine rather. I've wonderered how many of them are actually genetically Jewish. Some of the first Christian communities were Jewish. I could imagine that Israel would never recognize them as ethnically Jewish..."

I say:

In order to be Jewish, one must have a Jewish mother. I guess so that they'll be raised with Jewish traditions, values etc. I don't think ethnicity has anything to do with it, although so many of them can trace their ancestry way back. For instance the 'Levi's' are actually direct descendants of the priestly tribe in the Bible.

Now that's different with Greeks. To be Greek one must have a Greek father. If one has a Greek last name, they are still considered to be Greek, and can actually be drafted in the army...that is if a war occurs.

I have to laugh with someone in my family. Now this person was born here and so was his mother. When Greece was ready to go to war over Cyprus, he was in Greece at the time, and told to grab the first plane to anywhere so that he wouldn't be drafted.

Well he ended up in Rome, and his family in London. They say it was quite funny since it was summer and so many Greeks with foreign citizenships were vacationing in Greece. Frightening too, since Turkey is only a few miles from the islands.

Well this might seem a little strange that Greece would consider someone Greek no matter what citizenshi they hold, but one has to consider that if a Greek is kicked out of a nation...and one never knows, (it's happened so many time in Muslim lands), Greece will take them in.

So it is quite good to have a country to go to. I think that's what the Jews want. If Israel were to become a Muslim country, (and it would if there was a right of return), they would be in the same spot they were in before WW II.

You know, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Zenovia

I didn't say any of this. Hamas did. This is a Hamas press release. I posted it to draw attention to the comments on Christians and in line with the discussion thread. If you disagree wth Hamas, you can contact them.

Please note, again, that this does not represent my viewpoint.

Be well.

bob r.

Bob R,

In an effort to keep from being misrepresented, you need to use either the quote button on the new post or the URL button to provide a link. Otherwise, posters think the information provided to be your own opinion.

This will save a lot of confusion on everyone's part.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

An important point, no doubt!

I would not want to be mistaken for Mousa Abu Marzook of DAMASCUS by those who can't read or who only skim postings.

And certainly not by DHS also.

I bet DHS has even less tolerance for remarks about groundhogs. And my cellmates in Guantanamo or Romania or wherever they put people like me won't get the joke either--they don't have groundhogs in Afghanistan, you know.

Be well.

bob r.

I took it as some humor offered. Believe me not everyone looks my humor my way, or for that fact my posts

Whoops!

This should have quotes around it also:

"I took it as some humor offered. Believe me not everyone looks my humor my way, or for that fact my posts"
I don't want to be mistaken for a moderator either.

WHO exactly is DHS?

(And if it is a sarcastic epithet for someone, never mind).

Alice

I have found this interesting how the British often incorectly reffered to as the English were blamed with teh French for being Racists. Yet it was the USA that enforced mass sterilisation of the poor and meltaly ill. allowed Afro-americans to die of treatable sexually transmitted diseses. Now I will stop there as my point is that the picture was far bigger than the postings describe. Injustice has been done to many. No mention of the arab immigration into the Palastine area from Egypt and other places. I dont offer any easy solution but point out that this is more complex than it has been described so far. Yes big power politics have had to be accommodated all through history. My older British relatives are always reminding my generation that the USA came into WWII very late while they were at war from sept 1939 with the Nazis. Yes they were great full when the USA came into the war but there are others who said yes after they cleaned us out and took us to the cleaners. Both Israel and the Arabs who are no calling them selves palastinians, are going to have to come to an understanding one day and it looks like they are slowly moving in that direction. What a situation they have achieved since 1948. Maybe Israel will create the Arab state no onter Arab country wanted to see come into existance in 1948.

Sam Bahour, a Christian Palestinian leader, has sent me a copy of his talk given at the Association of International Development Agencies (AIDA) in Palestine on the Palestinian elections two days ago. As with almost everything
else Sam writes and says, this is timely and profound.

Sam still lives in El-Bireh. He is co-author of HOMELAND: Oral Histories of Palestine and Palestinians (1994).

If you would like a copy of Sam's talk, please contact me at rjrossi@navicom.com or send me a private message here.

I also heard that Fr. Musallam at the Holy Family Latin Rite Church in Gaza invited Mahmoud Zahar of Hamas to his church for a community meeting. Everything went well. Fr. Musallam has been a past supporter of Hamas.

One Love.

bob r.

I forgot to add this.

http://www.pnn.ps/english/archive2006/feb/week1/020206/report4.htm

One Love.

bob r.

Dear Pavel you said:

"My older British relatives are always reminding my generation that the USA came into WWII very late while they were at war from sept 1939 with the Nazis. Yes they were great full when the USA came into the war..."

I say:

I should hope that they were grateful that we entered the war. We didn't have to go to war you know...especially in Europe.

Pres. Roosevelt started the lend lease so that Britain could buy arms from us, without paying for them...England was broke. Now for a little information.

For one, we didn't have to go into WW I either. There were as many Germans, and people of German descent in this nation as there were English. There were also the Irish immigrants who certainly sufferred under the English, and therefore despised the British.

The German language lost out in Congress by one vote in being declared an official language of the US. All their business was conducted in German, and if you ever see some old TV programs of Lawrence Welk, you will notice he has a German accent...yet he was born and raised here.

We didn't have to help Britain in WW I, but taking into account that most of our politicians were predominantly British descent, we were helping her before we entered by sending arms to Britain. That's why the Lusitania was sunk.

After it was sunk, the Germans businesses were stoned (American crystalnacht), so they stopped using German, and changed their last names.

Now to understand the hypocrisy of it, our ambassador to Germany who was anti-German, said after we had entered the war that we must punish Sweden for sending food to Germany. In other words, it was okay for us as a neutral nation to send arms to Germany, yet it was not okay for neutral Sweden to send food to Germany.

Now another little tidbit. Around 1927 Britain was considering going to war with us. Why? Because our fleet was becoming greater than hers and she was being threatened.

It seems after I heard that, that I began to think of our friendship with Britain as a little one sided. Well thank heaven for Tony Blair. Gratitude at last.

Zenovia

Not quite [straightdope.com] .

What I was drawing atention to was the terrible 'others' out there in previous postings.
There were 'Black shirt' all over the world and there were many riots fought out in the streets between left and right all over the world, even in Australia. Many of the occupied countries provided willing servants of the occupiers who held the same political views. To single out the terrible "English" as the great racists is to distort history. Racism as I pointed out happens the world over. As the postings were by Americans i provided a few local examples of that. Here in my own country we have a terible history of racism that would rival that of the USA and south Africa put together. As for the Americans who aquired the assests of in the USA owned by British companies who were required to surrender them to pay for the British war effort. The Oil industry and cattle industry were areas with huge British ownership. With Britain alone fighting Hitler it is natural that those British would hope someone (anyone) would come to their aid. It was a fluke they were not invaded temselves when the real fighting started. It is also natural that malcontents would point out that the American are seen as coming in later and only when they were attacked and Germany declared war on the USA (so they did have to). Everyone else was pleased with a better late than never attitude and gave the USA troops a great welcome. As for anything going to happen in 1927...come off it. they were not ready for war in 1939 when it started and why they would attack an friend is beyond me. The 1920s were a period of huge disruption in amny countries and Britain (England included) was very busy dealing with this problem. When the War was over Britain was bankrupt. British people were still not allowed to take more that 50 Pounds out of the Country until the late 60s.

Dear DJS,

The truth is that the were plenty of Germans in this country, and the one's I knew had one parent that was descended way back from Germans, and another parent that came from Germany. In other words, they continuously intermarried.

...And here it was Benjamin FRanklin that said he was fearful that the very character of the country would change because of the German immigrants. And that was then.

But we also have to consider all the beer barons in St. Louis and Milwaukee and their patrons. Why even Flatbush in Brooklyn was German as was parts of upper Manhattan.

Not that it matters! Did you know that Greek was considered to become an official language at one time? I had heard it lost by one vote, and later by three. I also heard it was because of Daniel Webster. He claimed that enough Greek words were incoporated into the English language that Greek was not necessary.

Or so I heard.....(You really don't think I'm going to go to the trouble to look it up).

Zenovia

Dorohi Pavel Ivanovich,

I think you are reading things that aren't there. The English haven't been "singled out." We are discussing one particular historical situation in which a number of Ethnic groups played their own unique role. It is not a distortion of history to state the truth. And to say that the English were racist is not an exclusive statement. In other words the statement says nothing about other historical contexts in which other racists did various things.

It's not like anyone here has said: "The English are racist and *no one* else is."

Of course there are many many instances of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and one can discuss each of these in turn. Certainly the U.S. has had its own racist troubles and issues. The one strength that I see in the U.S. is the fact that everyone is a fairly recent immigrant here in the history of Homo Sapiens Sapiens and no one can claim the land in the way Asians, Africans or Eurasions or Europeans might.

If the shoe fits wear it. Otherwise all I can say is it seems "the lady doth protest too much!"

The British after WW 2 refused to let certain Slavs settle in Britain with the knowledge that they faced execution in the East. Another fact of history.

Dear Pavel you said:

" To single out the terrible "English" as the great racists is to distort history. Racism as I pointed out happens the world over. As the postings were by Americans i provided a few local examples of that. Here in my own country we have a terible history of racism that would rival that of the USA and south Africa put together."

I say:

Actually, for all the racism in the English speaking world, it must have been a lot worse in non-English speaking countries. I say this because I know of people immigrating freely and willingly to England, America, Australia and S. Africa, and yet one rarely hears of people immigrating to France, Germany, Austria, etc...or at least not to the same extent.

As for the USA, I have read letters from people in the North in pre civil war days, and they said that the laxity the slave owners put up with, they would never had endured from their servants. Also they said the blacks themselves knew that they had it quite good in comparison to the suffering of the blacks in the English islands of the Caribbean.

So don't listen to the complaints being given out on our media. Do you know that a black can have lower grades than a white person, and yet be accepted by a university that will not accept the white person. We have reverse racism here you know.

Actually what I think is going on in other nations, is that they are reflecting their own cultural prejudices and thereby magnifying whatever they hear is occuring here.

For example: I know one country that treats it's servants like slaves and in a way any American would find abhorent. Their indifference, lack of respect and plain cruelty is unbelievable, and yet they are the first to make comments about us as being insensitive and mean. Then again we have only to look at the French. haven't they been the most critical of us, and yet is there any Muslim or black in France in a position of power?

Zenovia

Dear Bob you said:

"I also heard that Fr. Musallam at the Holy Family Latin Rite Church in Gaza invited Mahmoud Zahar of Hamas to his church for a community meeting. Everything went well. Fr. Musallam has been a past supporter of Hamas."

I say:

I heard today about the attack on a church in Lebanon because of the cartoons. I had been worried these past days about the Christians in the Palestinian areas.

Is there any information you can give us?

Zenovia

This is a surprisingly ignorant statement that demonstrates your own biases Zenovia. You point to letters by Northerners as if there's some authority in the source -- as if somehow the fact of these letters are evidence of "truth". Who cares what Whites in the North had to say about what the "Blacks knew" or what the Blacks experienced as servants to the Southern Whites. To understand what the blacks knew and experienced you should ask the Blacks themselves. Have you ever done that? Have you ever talked to a descendant of Slaves or read the writings of former slaves and their children?

More nuanced views which would seem to correct what we are hearing:

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1426.cfm

and

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1425.cfm

and

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1424.cfm

Note particularly the understanding that Hamas cannot be easily written off as Islamicist.

One Love.

bob r.

Bob,

In additon to your links, there is another news article that is along the same vain.
CNA News Story [cwnews.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Nonna you said:

"This is a surprisingly ignorant statement that demonstrates your own biases Zenovia. You point to letters by Northerners as if there's some authority in the source -- as if somehow the fact of these letters are evidence of "truth". Who cares what Whites in the North had to say about what the "Blacks knew" or what the Blacks experienced as servants to the Southern Whites.

I say:

I merely quoted what I read by those visiting from the North and what they observed and heard at the time they visited. We have to remember that everything is relative...that is everything except sin.

The whites writing those letters were relating the blacks in the South to their own servants; either free or bonded in the North. In their opinion they found the plantation owners wives very sacrificial, to the point where they would stay up all night in order to doctor them and their children, or help them through labor.

The slaves also knew at the time, that their situation was quite favorable in comparison to the conditions of the blacks in the Caribbean. That does not mean the conditions they were living in was not deplorable.

Did you know that Andrew Carnegie, the so called great benefactor that built libraries and so forth, allowed his workers to take off only one day a year...the Fourth of July. They worked, I believe, about 15 hours a day, even on Sunday and religious holidays.

He constantly encouraged one company to compete with another so they would produce more and more.

At one time a friend of his from Scotland visited, and he wanted to show him his working man's 'utopia'. When his friend saw the deplorable conditions they were living in, for at that time Pittsburgh was black with soot, his friend told him that he had now seen 'hell'.

You said:

"To understand what the blacks knew and experienced you should ask the Blacks themselves."

I say:

As I mentioned, the slaves stated themselves at the time that their conditions were better than those in the Caribbean.

You said:

" Have you ever done that? Have you ever talked to a descendant of Slaves or read the writings of former slaves and their children?"

I say:

I don't believe that the slaves were literate, so they would not be able to relate their feelings at the time and place they occurred. Not that I'm denying that they sufferred. But are they the only one's in the world that sufferred? You know I had a great grand aunt that was taken into slavery in the Middle East.

It happened during a well known massacre, and the situation must have been so horrific that no member in my family ever spoke about it. I guess kind of like the holocaust. I had never met anyone willing to talk about what they went through.

Zenovia

My name is Dick; I'm a Catholic living in the middle of the USA.

Here's a quote I noted today:

"If Hamas is to recognize Israel, will Israel recognize Palestine? If Hamas is to end the armed resistance, will Israel end the belligerent military occupation?"

(Ghazi Hamad)

I would be intersted in comments on this quote.

Blessings.

Dick

I'm happy to read this because it shows a good strategy for Hamas and keeps the issue on point.

How will Israel respond now?

One Love.

bob r.

There were certainly literate people among the slaves in the USA - and there were laws forbidding the teaching of literacy to the slaves, with severe penalties. Nevertheless, some of the slaves have left us quite moving accounts of their experiences.

There was also a large federal project during the early presidency of Franklin Roosevelt to seek out former slaves who were still alive and collect their accounts, both oral and written. I read these accounts over forty years ago and I still recoil in horror just at the memory of reading them.

And, of course, there were cases of people born in slavery who after Emancipation achieved higher education - Paul Robeson's father was in this category.

As to whether things were better or worse in the Carribean or in the US/Confederate South, or on this plantation or that, it boils down to asking which one prefers, leprosy or cholera.

Incognitus

I'm not sure how I missed this great news!

http://www.pnn.ps/english/archive2006/feb/week1/070206/report1.htm

As if Hamas needed an issue.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article344233.ece

Dear Bob,

You keep posting sites. Now I 'dare' not go on, not only because I have not found anything in your postings that I could agree with, but because your tendencies and philosophies make me fearful that some of these sites might be observed by our nation's security system. They have to protect us against terrorists, you know!

Now if I was to link on one of your sites, a site that might not be totally 'kosher', the possibility exists that I myself could become suspect and being of a highly suspicious nature, I can only wonder if that might be the intent behind the links. After all, the more people that link on, the more difficult it becomes for our country to determine who is a terrorist and who is not. Why make their job more difficult.

Also, the hope of some liberals might be that by having more and more people linking on, people might start complaining about their rights being taken away. Either way, I personally refuse to link on.

But as I said, I am of a suspicious nature.

Zenovia

Dear Dick you quoted the following:

"If Hamas is to recognize Israel, will Israel recognize Palestine? If Hamas is to end the armed resistance, will Israel end the belligerent military occupation?"

(Ghazi Hamad)

I say:

I am sure Israel will rcognize Palestine, with certain conditions of course. Let's not forget we almost ended up in a nuclear disaster because Russia went to place missiles in Cuba. They were a threat to our security.

Certainly Israel would want to be assured that Palestine would not be in a position to be a threat to her. Maybe if all the mufti's were to condemn terrorism. Yeh right!

Zenovia

Dear Bob,

I must make a correction. It's not that I might not find anything in the links you posted that I might agree with...for I am sure I would agee with something. But when one tries to show only one side of an issue, then it becomes propaganda.

So now I have three reasons for not reading them. Oh boy am I suspicious! Well! At least I'm being honest.

Zenovia