www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Seminarians and Rose's book

Do you remember the seminarians who appeared here a few months ago who complained of a stiffling atmosphere at Pittsburgh? I know I could not discern what they were complaining about.

After reading most of Michael Rose's, "Good bye
Good Men" I'm wondering if any of those descriptions describe the situation the seminarians were trying to describe? Are any of those fellows still on board here? Does Rose help you describe your plight any better than before?

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

Being friends with some of the seminarians, in particular one of those that recently left, I can tell you the problems are not those described by Rose.

Having talked with seminarians, the rector, and the late Metropolitan I think the basic problem remains the celibacy issue. Young men enter the seminary unsure if they want to be married. Right now our hierarchs expect those that enter the seminary are committed to celibacy. For whatever reason they do not want young men who are unsure of that committment. As I have stated before the restoration of the married priesthood is going to start with older men with stable marriages and jobs. I have been told this directly by the late Metropolitan.

In Christ,
Lance

"...the restoration of the married priesthood is going to start with older men with stable marriages and jobs. I have been told this directly by the late Metropolitan."


Lance,

That Metropolitan is no longer with us. What he told you he took to the grave. We're back at a 'tabula rasa' concerning the issue you raise. Let's pray for our new (and newly elected) hierarchs. New bishops; new policy ... maybe.

Joe

The Ukrainians in Canada began by ordaining three men who had been serving as deacons. I suppose this enabled some real life testing of their marital stability. I don't think it advisable to have priests who are in unstable marriages.

Also, the financial support of the priest's family is a consideration, which has been discussed here before.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

John,

Anything is possible. I was referring to the fact that whatever plans the late Metropolitan had is mute due to his death. Any new Metropolitan doesn't have to follow through with the dreams and possibilities from another. Since we don't have any structured setup of program to admit married laymen at this time, what Lance suggests seems more of a possibility. But possibilities are like potential energy; they don't become kinetic until someone or something pushes it first.

Joe

Bishop Basil Losten, the Ukrainian Catholic Bishop of Stamford (Conn.) ordained two married men last summer. One was his deacon at the cathederal, Kyril Mandolev, who had studied at St. Basil's and I believe CUA. The other was Stephen Bilyk who had served as deacon in Rochester, NY for some time prior to his priestly ordination. I believe Stephan spent some time at the theological academy at St. Petersburg (not Florida). We have several married men currently as seminarians in our seminaries in the UGCC.

Also there is no shortage of priests in Ukraine, actually a surplus in some areas and the bishops in the U.S. have been bringing them over (most of them married) and teacing them English to serve over here. Several intensive English programs have also been developed in Ukraine to teach seminarians English who are interested in coming to North America.

Subdeacon Ranolph, a sinner

Really?! Hah, That is a laugh! A real sore spot for me right now. Importing seminarians from Ukraine is not the right answer, they are culturally aloof to America and many do not learn the English language, even though they "promise" our bishops they will.

This is a sensitive issue, because I have seen this idea fail twice in Sacramento and all the English speaking members of our community have left. Our church in Sacramento now serves as a museum of Ukrainian culture rather than a place of worship.

Question: There are alot of questionable vocations in Ukraine. Do you think their bishops would send us their good seminarians to serve us in America? What happened in Philadelphia? There is your answer to that one. We need American clergy to guide our church in America. I know that I am not mainstream in our church on this view, but our church is an American Church. We need to realize this if we are going to be a viable faith.

ALity

ALity, as usual you are quick on the trigger. I don't think anyone short of God is qualified to judge every vocation, Ukraine or elsewhere. There are questionable American priests and vocations in our church too, I have met them and served for them. Our worst parish situation was probably actually with an American-born priest. I have also seen immigrant priests be very successful in parishes. I don't think any crass judgemental generalizations are going to help the situation.

The situation is a catch 22- until we get enough North American vocations in the seminary and ordained how to do we deal with a critical pastoral situation that exists RIGHT NOW? I don't disagree that we need more North American priests, nor that there have been problems with some of the Ukrainian priests - but that is not saying that some European priests have not adjusted well and been able to serve successfully in North American parishes. It's a difficult situation that will not be cured overnight nor with one band-aid approach.

I am quick on the trigger? As usual? Well thanks, and I thought we agreed on most things. . . I guess I'll have to work on that.

Sorry but I have had very negative experiences with foriegn priests and I know of other similar situations throughout the eparchy.

Yes, I will make a generalization becuase I think it has merit. We are going to have to decide whether we are an American church with a tradition from Ukraine, or a Ukrainian museum in the form of a church. Sure we will have to support those priests, becuase we need them. But it is a band aid approach to the problem. Our church does not speak to the society in which it finds itself.

The night I posted my message my Ukrainian priest decided to follow a "vote" in the parish and cancel the English Liturgy that we were having once a month. The Church's gates were locked and no one could get in. We celebrated the liturgy in someone's living room. (kinda like the catacombs)

So, sorry but I am bitter.

And I guess I take offense at the "trigger" comment, because I try to be very articulate andd be fair and objective.

Se la . . .

ALity

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

ALity,
There are some priests from Ukraine who have learned to speak English and do English Liturgies such as Fr. Bohdan at the cathedral or the priests at St. John's in Detroit. I think some of the Fr. Chrysostom's (golden mouth because of the golden teeth, get it ) from Ukraine are good, spiritual men. Not all are gold diggers.

I think it should be mandatory that every parish have 2 different liturgies for the different liturgies.

Its unfortunate about the vote. Maybe there should be 2 Ukrainian Catholic churches there, one with an English liturgy and the other with the Ukrainian one.

I think the DIvine Liturgy in a living room or in someone's house would be really cool but then again I am pretty liberal
ukrainiancatholic

Yeah there was something cool about it. But some people came to church to find the gate locked at the street and were very upset, after all, they were the ones who built our church, not the immigrants. I am not anit-immigrant, or anti priest from Ukraine. I want equality for all waves of immigrant and their families who may not be Ukrainian. And I want equal pastoral concern for those who are not Ukrainian and convert to our church. A policy of not worrying about culitvating vocations from North America, because the Ukrainians will bail us out with their "extra" seminarians is, in my view, not providing for the pastoral needs of all those mentioned above. The church should also ship every priest who scuffs off learning English and serving our American Church back to Ukraine. This is in fact the churches policy but it has not been implemented for any priest who fails to meet his end of the deal.

But alas, the threadd has gotten way off topic. So what does this book talk about (Rose)?

ALity

Ality,

Yes, it has got off topic. I didn't interrupt because I'm learning something.

After years of research and thousands of interviews Rose contends that the priestly shortage is artificial because those who have controlled the American Latin Catholic Church are modernists who care little for Rome and have allowed a lavender mafia to infiltrate most of the Catholic seminaries. This has driven away many of the orthodox seminarians.

While the study is of the Western Church it is also applicable to the Eastern American Church, I believe. I know that at least some of these problems persist in our archeparchy.

I wish that those seminarians who were posting a couple of months back would come back on and explain themselves. Lance may be correct that the whole problem concerns married vs. unmarried priests. If so then all we can do is wait to see if our new bishops will follow Pope John Paul's admonision to ordain married priests. If the problem is more diverse I'd like to read it from their computer.

Dan Lauffer

Dan, why don't you give the whole homosexual thing a rest. I for one am getting tired of your rhetoric. Don

Dan -

I am not too sure they will talk about their problems. The last time, the thread was deleted by the forum monitors, so I don't know if we will ever know what went on their.

Whether your posts have anything to do with homosexuality, as Don implicates, I don't know either.

Many people blame religion and politics for the problems in the world, which is substantiated by the reports in the media which label disputes between Pakistan and India as religious disputes, underplaying the purely political and economic forces that are involved.

Traditional religions are not in vogue in the western world. I think that this has alot to do with the problem. Americans don't like to be reminded of the reality of sin. It disfigures the image in the mirror when we look at ourselves, and that is something we don't want to be confronted with.

As Christians we need to be better Christians, that will ensure more vocations. As St. Seraphim of Sarov is so commonly quoted on this forum: "Acquire the Holy Spirit within you and thousands around you will be converted" (or somehting like that) is the true answers.

The society in which we fin ourselves in the USA has very similar hedonistic and self centered virtues that were prevalent in the Roman Empire. Christianity began to appeal to so many people because of the way the ancient Christians lived an associated with one another. If we act more like those early Christians did, we will see the human spirit embrace Christianity again. But this takes alot of individual effort.

There is a Ukrainian Catholic mission in Ukiah, CA. There is not one ethnic Ukrianian there, just a bunch of Smith's and Jones'. From what I have witnessed there it is a very faith filled community and I hear there are two or three young men from this community in the midst of discerning a vocation to the priesthood. The strength of our faith communities will nuture our future seminarians.

ALity

How about back "off topic"? - believe me, ALity, I can sympathize with your bitterness. That is a disappointing blow, having a liturgy just cancelled like that. I can remember having to specially request English sermons from a former young Ukrainian pastor when I had guests coming to the Church. It just took him so much more time to prepare.

What a wonderful opportunity for outreach and evangelization down the tubes in the case of your English liturgy. My prayers and sympathies. This is truly a difficult situation - in our midwest areas we have priests taking care of multiple parishes, up to 3 hours or so driving time apart. This is the current reality for some of our parishes. Do we close parishes, when we don't have American vocations to staff them, when can get some Ukrainian priests to temporarily alleviate the pastoral situation?

I don't have any answers, just a lot of questions, but sometimes you have to control the bleeding before you can fully treat the patient. I've got an idea - you get ordained priest, we'll start an Old Calendar parish in English, I'll be your deacon.

I know of that parish in Ukiah, that is Father David Anderson of St. Vladimir's Seminary fame who translated St. Basil's On the Holy Spirit. He is an ex-OCA priest and was a prodigy student of Alexander Schmemann's. He was also the liturgical instructor for some of the Ben Lomond crowd. Fantastic man. Take care and God bless.