www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Vote: "Christians of the true faith" or "orthodox Christians"?

Dear Pavel,

Will you then be the Pied Piper of Perth for us?

Michael

Dear InCogNeat3's,

You are correct, IMHO, however, we have many members that refuse and refute anything to do with the "O" word, and this does include clergy. That is where the issue stems.

When I asked in another topic area what is the benefit of being a sui iuris of Rome, I did not receive any answers that I felt dealt with our unique situation. I do know that many cradle Byzcaths have defended their Catholicism to the point of forgoing (or possibly forgetting?) their Orthodox heritage. I applaud the loyalty, but not necessarily the end effect, yet I believe I may have done the same, if I wore those same shoes from birth onwards.

So, I ask again, what type of pastoral care should be provided for our loving members of the faith community that have endured years and years of hardship and the need to defend this wonderful Church as Catholic, if we are to restore "Orthodox Christians"? I do feel this will be a major issue.

In Christ,

Michael

The most important pastoral care for any of the Greek-Catholic faithful who might feel slighted or grieved by the liturgical use of the term "Orthodox" is a pastoral letter from the hierarchs explaining this term and the reasons for its use - and, of course, stating plainly and clearly that we have not the slightest intention of breaking our ties with the Catholic Church. Here the excellent phrase of Pope John Paul II "Orthodox in Faith and Catholic in love" will be of great help.

There are some other things which might be considered, but that is the most important and will do for a starter.

Incognitus

The shame is that this should have happened years ago. How long since Vatican II was closed? What have the bishops been doing for all those years?

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Incognitus,

You always seem to provide the right answers!

Thank you.

Michael

Being taught to take great pride in being Orthodox would also help. Constantly reminding ourselves that we don't have to do what everyone elso does. If another Church changes Calendars that doesn't mean the Byzantine Catholics should, if another Church lessens or eliminates fasting requirements that doesn't mean the Byzantine Catholic Church should, if another Church has the Rosary before Their Liturgy that doesn't mean the Byzantine Catholic Church should, if the Priest of a Byzantine Catholic Parish has witnessed a Greek Orthodox Church have only a Priest, a Deacon, and a visiting Roman Catholic Priest show up for Orthros (Matins)that doesn't mean that the members of a Byzantine Catholic Church wouldn't or couldn't be taught to love Matins and joyfully attend and participate etc. Basically, resoring the term Orthodox would mean work and succesfully and Cahritably confronting others with regard to Religious matters in order to help the rebuked attain Salvation. It has been my experience that Priests are too coward to tell parishioners how to dress in Church, to keep Fasts, perhaps even for Parish Trustees to not be Free masons

Incognitus, you're right on the mark. Too many people do not understand what the true meaning is of the word "orthodox." It carries a certain stigma.

The Ukrainians have made peace with the word, and use 'orthodox christians' in their Divine Liturgy. I believe it truly is an education moment.

Most people don't realize that in the old Latin text of the Roman Catholic Mass, the people prayed "pro orthoxis fidelibus," for "Orthodox Christians," meaning the faithful who professed the accurate teaching of the faith.

It is the difference between describing our Faith and not just the Church.

As Pope John Paul II stated so eloquently, we are "Orthodox in Faith, and Catholic in the bonds of love."

Always, IMHO
Cathy

It's nice to be appreciated; please accept my thanks!

Incognitus

So, for those that voted, we have a majority view.

Will this be read by those who can make a difference? How can we bring this to the attention of current staff providing a revised translation of the Divine Liturgy?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Michael

Honestly--since it seems that the new translation was received back from Rome (a while ago) with the OK after the corrections that they deemed necessary, I doubt that it would be sent back to Rome again for OK for the change in just one word.

My $.02

John K

And you really think that anyone in authority listens to us? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ROFL

The poll is unscientific. Still, I think it should be given some weight as this appears to be the only internet forum used by Byzantine Catholics.

What I think would count more is to write your Bishop politely expressing your thoughts on the matter. Perhaps one solution would be to allow parishes the option to use "orthodox" instead of "true faith."

A 75% majority seems respectable. If anyone disagrees let him, her or them organize a scientific poll taken professionally.

Incognitus

Dear Friends,

Can we now have a discussion on what would be meant by using "Orthodoxy" with a capital "O" as opposed by "orthodoxy?"

And does not "Orthodoxy" mean BOTH "right believing" AND "right worshipping" and to use "of the true faith" would be a mistranslation of epic proportions?

We can vote on this all we want - but it should be an informed vote, no?

Alex

Dear Alex,
Well, "orthodox" in its uncapitalized form can apply to almost anything - my doctor (a practicing Catholic) has no use for what is sometimes called "alternative medicine" and when the topic comes up he will state firmly that he is an adherent and practitioner of "orthodox medicine". One can - if one cares to be bothered - discuss at great length the question of whether Mao Tse-Tung was an "orthodox Marxist" or a Hegelian. On the religious front, it is possible to describe someone as an "orthodox Biblicist", without thereby indicating his denominational affiliation, if any.

In capitalized form "Orthodox" is either a proper noun or a proper adjective, depending on the context. Thus, for instance, we may say that "Saint Theodore the Studite is a crucial figure in the development of Orthodox monasticism".

It is in this latter sense that the Greek-Catholic Churches normally use the term "Orthodox" (cf., for example, the letter of approbation from Patriarch Maximos V for the publication of Byzantine Daily Worship.)

Saint Peter Mohyla liked to use the form "Catholic-Orthodox" or "Orthodox-Catholic", and some Greek-Catholic communities also like to use that form.

Note that the rules of capitalization differ from one language to another.

As to the euphemisms, since the liturgical texts, particularly in Greek, often use the phrase "faithful Orthodox Christians", the euphemisms could put such silly expressions as "faithful faithful Christians" or "faithful Christians of the true faith" into our mouths. That might do for Steinbeck, who in one of his novels refers to the Christian Christian political party in France, but it will not do for serious purposes!

Incognitus